Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

Doesn't St create a warpbubble ? So size and weight wouldn't really matter. btw it's space so there is less power needed than when in atmosfeer.

but 20,000x speed of light in less then a second is awesome. The shields of the ships must take a lot of distress i suppose.

i think that one of the reasons they invented structural integrity fields and inertial dampers (i presume a similar tech) was to compenste for the hull and crew stress factors.

Hellblade, looks like i have forgoten all about that episode. i have the entire TNG and DS9 on disks (except for 2-3 episodes) so i should have remembered. i've been looking for confirmed torpedo strikes on inert matter of identifyable size in a long time. unlike the phaser drillings i could not remember of a torpedo impact. torpedoes are relatively easier to quantify, because their energy delivery is relatively straight forward (maater VS anti-matter and then you have a blast mesured in isotones), unlike blasters, disroptors, phasers, plasma guns and other devils that could do who knows what to your target. your case seams solid. the only things we can play with is the asteroid composition and the level of destruction, so we can get as conservative as possible. it's late here at the moment, but i'll dig out DS9 as early as tommorow if possible.

 

[antaran_1979]

thinking about it Sw shields aren't so bad as Trekkie claim. I'm not into all this numbers but i do know that the millenium Falcon came out of hyperdrive straight in the leftovers of Alderan. The Shields seem to prevent destuction didn't they. And i don't think they had the power allready directed to the front shields.

Btw Shields are created to defend against known weapons. I bet St aswell as SW have weapons the other side doesn't know about so i it not fair to say that they both will have weapons the shields aren't able to stop.

It's like the gungan shields in Episode one. it holds back all firepower of the droids but they just walk through. So with a midevil catapult u could do some serious damage. Use a crossbow u fire you're arrow straight through the shield.

How well are St shields against a simple arrow?

this is actually a very good point. several non canon sources on startrek indicate that the shields are very good at stoping chaotic blast and kinetic objects (torpedo blast or rocks) but are somwhat more vulnerable to phaser and disruptor fire (i guess something to do with the nadion emissions asociated with these weapons). on the oposite side of this argument, the phasers are less effective agains very dense materials (often imployed in construction of heavy armoured facilities and ships) or even ablative armours, unlike the torpeoes that do not apear to share this problem. however these are non canon sources (games and manuals) so can't use them in my estemates allthough they are backed up with some visuals (like ships taking 10s of torpedous without loosing shields but 4-5 disrupters cause sevare strain and then taking those same disruptors for 5 full minutes with moderate damage but being turned to dust by a single medium yeild torpedo).

as you pointed out though, trek is very contradictional in its representation, especially when you compare earlier shows with the latest (often even the same series can be hell for someone that likes establishing the firepower ratios of diferent ships).

 

[antaran_1979]

bottom line, torpedo hits are somewhat prone to interpretations because later canon confirms they can be fired with no explosive effect at all or with oveloading effects on their m-am containement. but this does not help us much. there is no way of knowing what is the trade off. when you overload your torpedo, do you get some of the guidence systems out, do you reduce the antimatter neaded for the warp sustainor? is there a standard yield, for a class X/Y torpedo? few sourves that a current max of 18.5 isotons and hypotethical max of 25 isotons. is that maximum for otimised performance or for oveloading? does the 25 max involves total m-am anihilation or some other facor?

we have tons of problems, isn't that wonderfull?

 

[Hellblade8]

i think that one of the reasons they invented structural integrity fields and inertial dampers (i presume a similar tech) was to compenste for the hull and crew stress factors.

Hellblade, looks like i have forgoten all about that episode. i have the entire TNG and DS9 on disks (except for 2-3 episodes) so i should have remembered. i've been looking for confirmed torpedo strikes on inert matter of identifyable size in a long time. unlike the phaser drillings i could not remember of a torpedo impact. torpedoes are relatively easier to quantify, because their energy delivery is relatively straight forward (maater VS anti-matter and then you have a blast mesured in isotones), unlike blasters, disroptors, phasers, plasma guns and other devils that could do who knows what to your target. your case seams solid. the only things we can play with is the asteroid composition and the level of destruction, so we can get as conservative as possible. it's late here at the moment, but i'll dig out DS9 as early as tommorow if possible.

I was actually planning to go with the smaller hard granite idea, but the later calculations didn't pan out (they were all horribly too low, where as the 1.2 gigaton issue landed Type VI torpedoes right in the area of 83.33 megatons, which is fairly close to Rise calculations stated by Darkstar, so in that instance we could presume they were either using a different class torpedo or they added more antimatter.

As for phasers, the Defiant's pulse phasers can take out a Jem'Hadar bug in one volley; something that DS9 needed at least three torpedoes to replicate. Of course, Klingon Birds of Prey can also perform the same feat in about the same number of shots as the Defiant (the Defiant's reate of fire is just much higher, like six or eight to the BoP's two). Of course, I suspect that the pulse phasers/disruptors are anti-shield oriented, which makes it easier for penetration and overwhelming shield grids.

 

[Hellblade8]

thinking about it Sw shields aren't so bad as Trekkie claim. I'm not into all this numbers but i do know that the millenium Falcon came out of hyperdrive straight in the leftovers of Alderan. The Shields seem to prevent destuction didn't they. And i don't think they had the power allready directed to the front shields.

Well, the Falcon was also small enough and such to prevent heavy damage. The issue itself isn't that the shields are bad, so much as not up to UFP specs in most areas. Their most fatal flaw is that they tend to use two different shielding systems. The first is a shield that stops both physical and energy attacks; we see these shields present on ISDs, SSDs, fighters, and freighters. Larger shields, typically Hoth's shield and the DS1's shield are of the energy only variety; in other words, perfectly exposed to a photon torpedo. Now, I suspect that this is passable to some extent; the DS2 had the shield of the ships and freighters, but this must have been an expensive piece of technology and probably only present in very few areas (possibly Coruscant cities would have something akin to this).

Btw Shields are created to defend against known weapons. I bet St aswell as SW have weapons the other side doesn't know about so i it not fair to say that they both will have weapons the shields aren't able to stop.

Well, that's a bit hard to say. SW weapons will probably have some sort of advantage, simply because their weapons are plasma base, which can be annoying to ST ships that make such heavy use of frequencies (again, the phaser/disruptor pulses are suspected of working on those principals), but the technology itself isn't something that's so rare that the UFP can't handle it (Klingons and Romulans do make use of it after all). SW shields vs Federation weapons is a bit different. Phasers might work differently since I would suspect that SW engineers would adjust their shields to be more resiliant to frequency specific issues due to the their heavy use of plasma, but phasers are also much stronger and advanced in technology. Photon torpedoes also present a problem simply due to their output.

It's like the gungan shields in Episode one. it holds back all firepower of the droids but they just walk through. So with a midevil catapult u could do some serious damage. Use a crossbow u fire you're arrow straight through the shield.

True, but this is often limited to army shielding (probably for mobility and simplicity issues) and for massive shielding like we see on Hoth and the DS1, although the SSD and the DS2 shields do show that the Empire is slowly updating their shielding technology of that level.

How well are St shields against a simple arrow?

It would be repulsed easily enough. Worf once constructed a shield emitter out of his communication device. Now in a Borg scenario it is a bit hard to say; most arrows won't do much to a drone and even if it did manage to mortally wound it, the drone would regenerate or be absorbed back into the Collective. If it came to the point that normal guns were proving to be a hinderance to the Collective, they would probably construct something to counter it, either by shield adjustments or armor.

 

[Hellblade8]

Didn't the Millennium Falcon also sneak up onto the backside of a Star Destroyer bridge? I'm sure this has been brought up before, so anyone enlighten me about that scene?

True, but the Falcon was making what appeared to be an attack run on one of the ISDs. The captain in charge ordered the ship to what I think was full power to the forward shields, which may have meant that their aft shields were lowered. Likely because not being an idiot, he figured that the only reason the ship that small and weak would charge them if it had an ace up their sleeve (or was going to do a suicide run, detonating the Falcon's reactors would probably have given off a fairly impressive bang).

 

[Hellblade8]

The biggest avantage of SW is numbers.
More beings, more weapons, more ships.

Not really. Given that there were only three million clone troops, that suggests about 30,000 if we have a hundred per ship, 60,000 if it was fifty per ship. Now, the Empire might have 60,000 to 120,000 ships depending due to their tyrant nature, but that also forces those ships to remain within a dominating position to keep people in line.

The United Federation of Planets has at least 10,000 to 12,000 starships...well, warships actually. Ships like Nova, Intrepid, and Oberth aren't used in fleet engaments and so the number is probably about 12,000 to 16,000 including those numbers. But strictly speaking, the UFP and their allies had about 30,000 ships during the Dominion War and their enemy probably had something of about 45,000 to 55,000 starships; about the same as the numbers used in the Clone Wars. They still have the industry and numbers advantage, but it isn't as large as some people seem to think it is.

Mass production. oh yeah St has replicators but u can't replicate a warp enginge leaving all those replicated ships as nice decoration and awesome target practice for SW lmao

Despite this, Voyager was still able to crank out about twenty shuttles despite this issue and even build two Delta Flyers (one in three days time with a crew not trained for building ships, but rather repairing and maintaining them). Not to mention stuff like starbases and Spacedocks (Spacedock is F*ing huge, it makes a SSD look puny by comparison).

meanwile a few worlddavestators spawn out thousands and thousands of fighters ready for combat.

World devistators? That isn't EU is it?

As for fighters...they also tend to be weaker than most UFP shuttles (one of Voyager's shuttles used on phaser shot to destroy a semi, where as TIE fighters can barely scorch the surface of rocks and their torpedoes have the yield of about a hand grenade).

 

[Hellblade8]

euh you should look at the films as some kind of Anakin Skywalkers Chronicles lmao

Lucas stated that in the Eu everthing is cannon except when it contradicts the movies. I find it to be a fair statement. So if it contradicts the movies it is considered non-cannon i can live with that.
But can you live with the fact that in St there are a lot of contradictions in one season of a series. like the size of the defiant to name one

Actually, EU is canon...just in its own universe. He made two official universes like Paramount did with Star Trek so he could basically have his cake and eat it too. It only becomes a problem for fans when it comes to an ST vs SW debate. In fact, it probably wouldn't even be a problem then if it wasn't for the Wong whores out there claiming 200GT firepower, despite the fact that this was never seen in the movies.

That's actually why now I'm writing an TOS ST vs SW story, where the Empire is still far ahead industry wise to counterbalance the more advanced technology of the Federation. Also, writing a TOS story is really just fun all on its own. They were more willing to use bigger and more destructive weapons in those days, and the Romulans and Klingons weren't such good buddies either.

 

[Kittamaru]

Doesn't St create a warpbubble ? So size and weight wouldn't really matter. btw it's space so there is less power needed than when in atmosfeer.

but 20,000x speed of light in less then a second is awesome. The shields of the ships must take a lot of distress i suppose.

The shields don't take any stress - the structual integrity field does.

And the warp bubble helps reduce the mass, but it's main function is to bend space. It condenses space in front of the ship and expands it behind it, thereby effectively reducing the total distance it has to travel.

 

[Kittamaru]

euh you should look at the films as some kind of Anakin Skywalkers Chronicles lmao

Lucas stated that in the Eu everthing is cannon except when it contradicts the movies. I find it to be a fair statement. So if it contradicts the movies it is considered non-cannon i can live with that.
But can you live with the fact that in St there are a lot of contradictions in one season of a series. like the size of the defiant to name one

Yes, but he has also said that the EU is "another universe, separate and distinct" from his own - I'll find yout he quote if you wish.

 

[Kittamaru]

this is actually a very good point. several non canon sources on startrek indicate that the shields are very good at stoping chaotic blast and kinetic objects (torpedo blast or rocks) but are somwhat more vulnerable to phaser and disruptor fire (i guess something to do with the nadion emissions asociated with these weapons). on the oposite side of this argument, the phasers are less effective agains very dense materials (often imployed in construction of heavy armoured facilities and ships) or even ablative armours, unlike the torpeoes that do not apear to share this problem. however these are non canon sources (games and manuals) so can't use them in my estemates allthough they are backed up with some visuals (like ships taking 10s of torpedous without loosing shields but 4-5 disrupters cause sevare strain and then taking those same disruptors for 5 full minutes with moderate damage but being turned to dust by a single medium yeild torpedo).

as you pointed out though, trek is very contradictional in its representation, especially when you compare earlier shows with the latest (often even the same series can be hell for someone that likes establishing the firepower ratios of diferent ships).

Directed Energy Weapons are more effective vs shields, but torpedoes are more effective vs armor and bare hull.

 

[antaran_1979]

Directed Energy Weapons are more effective vs shields, but torpedoes are more effective vs armor and bare hull.

i assume that too.

still, the shields are aperantly very good at stoping EM based weapons too (lasers).

and to add to our predicament is the "Q-Who" example, when E-Ds phaser strike punches through a non-shielded tritanium made Borg cube, desintegrating more material in the process then an entire GCS put together.

maybe modulating the phaser changes the efects. i once proposed that changing the beam's frequency and fyring articulated beams is more efective against shielding (as shields apear to try and adapt to the type of threat set against them) but at a cost of losing on beam efficiency, thus reducing impact on hull armour.

 

[Kittamaru]

Certain frequencies are more damaging, but are more easily adapted to. Conversely, some frequencies at extremely high frequencies would be very dirsuptive to hull materials, but less so vs shields.

 

[fedr808]

maybe we should lure the ST ships into the asteroid field and let the massive wormthingy eat them. would save us on petfood lmao

You guys gotta admit that would be pretty funny. I means seriously seeing like a cruiser just minding it's own business and then a giant worm thing eats it. Anyways have any of you seen star wars robot chicken? When one of the worms misses the milenium falcon it consults its brother and they both end up eating chinese food.

Alos im surprised no warsie has bothered to bring up the topic of the eclips star destroyer. I mean honestly that thing looks awesome. But what is that weird thing that looks like a scythe coming out of the front for?

 

[fedr808]

The biggest avantage of SW is numbers.
More beings, more weapons, more ships.
Mass production. oh yeah St has replicators but u can't replicate a warp enginge leaving all those replicated ships as nice decoration and awesome target practice for SW lmao

meanwile a few worlddavestators spawn out thousands and thousands of fighters ready for combat.

Wow this is epic, fail. first off their are more star systems in star trek that are used, i mean in star wars it feels like the star wars empire is situated in one area of the galaxymwhile star trek uses all four somewhat. Also the borg have a vastly larger amount of ships than star wars. Their ships are numbered basically in the order they are built, there are number that are in the hundred thousands and some say the millions. Plus they are immense. atleast a few times larger than a star destroyer. Each ships has 80,000 soldiers last i checked, and im pretty sure a star destroyer does not have quite that much (havent checked this out so if someone could 4 me that would be great.)

And you know whta you guys since very little is known about comparisons between sensors and shields can we just for the sake of this debate assum they are close to the same. Because no one has come up with truly concrete evidence for this debate and no one can win it so lets just drop it. Okay?

Oh yeah torpedos from star wars do pierce shields. To my knowledge they project a field around them hence the redish hue that somehow disrupts shields in the immediate area allowing it to pierce them.

And i have one more question, in EVERY sci fie show ever when a solid object hits a shield like a bullet or something the shield flares and than goes back to normal. What happens to the projectile?> does it just stop and drop to the ground? or does it get vaporized or something?

 

[Lord Vasago]

Not really. Given that there were only three million clone troops, that suggests about 30,000 if we have a hundred per ship, 60,000 if it was fifty per ship. Now, the Empire might have 60,000 to 120,000 ships depending due to their tyrant nature, but that also forces those ships to remain within a dominating position to keep people in line.

You are talking about 3 million clones. but what about the billions of Humans.
and billions of other species who are intelligent enough to master ships.
infinitive numbers of droids. there are thousands of species just look at the senate. Do you really believe there would be representatives in the senate if the spicies isn't evolved like the rest?

about ships. It is Starwars vs Startrek not the Empire Vs Federation.
You have to acount all of the rebel fleet, The hutts fleet, Bountyhunters, en all other independant spaceships.
Just like we need to consider all Klingon, Ferengi, Romulans, Vulcans, Borg, species 8whatever. People and ships.


Nomatter who wins it shure would be fireworks in the sky lmao

As for fighters...they also tend to be weaker than most UFP shuttles (one of Voyager's shuttles used on phaser shot to destroy a semi, where as TIE fighters can barely scorch the surface of rocks and their torpedoes have the yield of about a hand grenade).

A-wing, B-wing, E-wing, x-wing, y-wing. Naboo fighters, Vaders-tie, Droid-fighters, To name a few. Not all are weak as an disposable Tie-fighter.
Well we'll use the tie's for ground assauld then lmao.

 

[Lord Vasago]

You guys gotta admit that would be pretty funny. I means seriously seeing like a cruiser just minding it's own business and then a giant worm thing eats it. Anyways have any of you seen star wars robot chicken? When one of the worms misses the milenium falcon it consults its brother and they both end up eating chinese food.

yeah robot chicken is hilarious

Alos im surprised no warsie has bothered to bring up the topic of the eclips star destroyer. I mean honestly that thing looks awesome. But what is that weird thing that looks like a scythe coming out of the front for?

they did in the beginning but trekkies always screamed EU or non-cannon.
It looks awesome indeed but I hate to edmit thats about it. It's more of a scare tactic ship. allthough it has a superlazer like the death star.
It is a good addition to the fleet but in Eu there are even better ships who can be driven by one person and do equal amount of damage. lol

 

[fedr808]

You know what i always thought is that the empire is completely overkill. I mean why not spend some of that money on defeating corruption. With star trek it's building whats necessary to get the job done. The death star as great as it is, is way overkill and just plain impractical. It is a scare weapon. It moves at a snails place too which is rather useless. In the end it was going to be destroyed because of that factor.

Also the empire vs. rebellion, how dumb is that sort of fight, just the odds. It's like the entirety of Iran's military going up against the entirety of the US military. There is no way Iran would turn out on top. This is my analogy of the empire being the US adn rebellion being Iran.

 

[TW Scott]

Wow this is epic, fail. first off their are more star systems in star trek that are used, i mean in star wars it feels like the star wars empire is situated in one area of the galaxymwhile star trek uses all four somewhat. Also the borg have a vastly larger amount of ships than star wars. Their ships are numbered basically in the order they are built, there are number that are in the hundred thousands and some say the millions. Plus they are immense. atleast a few times larger than a star destroyer. Each ships has 80,000 soldiers last i checked, and im pretty sure a star destroyer does not have quite that much (havent checked this out so if someone could 4 me that would be great.)

Okay, first of all the ENTIRE Star Wars galaxy is explored and 75% of it was under imperial control with the remainging 25% split up amongst several other concerns, most of which were friendly with the Empire. Statr trek in comparison is fairly uninhabitated. The Federation controls less than 10% of the galaxy and even if number are accurate on the Borg there are more sentients int Coruscant and Corellia systems than there are Borg period.

As for troop comparisons Borg cubes carry 40-200,000 borg, assuming one quarter are neccesary for ship maintenace and operation, that is 30 -150,000 borg drones as troops. A single ISD carries 40,000+ troops and crew using weapons the borg cannot adapt to and the ISD carries enough weaponry to outgun a fleet of Federation vessels. In a one on one stand off, the ISD would be the winner every time. Hell Nebulan B frigates would walk all over Borg cubes.

And you know whta you guys since very little is known about comparisons between sensors and shields can we just for the sake of this debate assum they are close to the same. Because no one has come up with truly concrete evidence for this debate and no one can win it so lets just drop it. Okay?

Well, ST sensors are consistantly fooled by strange magnetic fields, anomalies, and even ordinary polar fields of planets. SW sensors seem to show no such weaknesses. They only time they have showed any blindspot is ESB and that was exploited by a pilot who knew Imperial ships intimately.

Oh yeah torpedos from star wars do pierce shields. To my knowledge they project a field around them hence the redish hue that somehow disrupts shields in the immediate area allowing it to pierce them.

Transphasics seem to do that with Borg shields, but the rest always impact on shields unless the firing ship knows the shield frequency of the target ship.

And i have one more question, in EVERY sci fie show ever when a solid object hits a shield like a bullet or something the shield flares and than goes back to normal. What happens to the projectile?> does it just stop and drop to the ground? or does it get vaporized or something?

This depends on the power of the shield, what type it is, and the projectile. In other words it's complicated.

 

[Kittamaru]

An X-Wing would get insta-vaporized by a shot form the Ent-E