5th Dimension

[DJA]

Andrew, are you saying that as we move in time we are moving from one dimension into the next? If time is a dimension of something it must be a measure not a vehicle of transport. Time is a dimension of the thing as is indetermination. The thing moves in time and will change in some way from moment to moment. That change is the dimension I speak about. the thing is never the same from moment to moment because it changes in some way.
Time and indetermination are two separate measurements as are width and length. Time is that which is endurence indetermination is the change.

 

[DJA]

I'm sorry-not "endurence, I mean Time is that which is duration and indetermanenation is the change.

 

[Oli]

I think that all matter will eventualy be drawn into black holes until entropy exhausts the energy that is required of this.

Why, and how, would all matter be drawn into black holes?

Oli,
Indeterminent means that a thing changes constanly. It cannot stay the same because of this dimension. Change is not only inevitable it is a dimension that could be measured by the differences in the thing that changes from one moment to the next.......

Time is thing that registers change. Things changing is how we measure time.

Oli, do you think that there is a morality? Does it come from culture? Did it evolve from nature?

Hmm, slight change of topic We had a thread on this a week or so back. It would appear that there is morality built in to humans, from my reading. So I'd say nature.

I realize that this get's into philospophy, but let's try and let the lines cross for a moment. How would a scientist explain......sponteniety?

Define spontaneity. Symmetry breaking? Radioactive decay? Or do you mean spontaneity in humans?

Andrew, are you saying that as we move in time we are moving from one dimension into the next? If time is a dimension of something it must be a measure not a vehicle of transport.

So if you travel a mile down the road you're moving from one dimension to the next? Nope.

Time is a dimension of the thing as is indetermination. The thing moves in time and will change in some way from moment to moment.

You still haven't defined indeterminacy.

That change is the dimension I speak about. the thing is never the same from moment to moment because it changes in some way.

Apart from gathering dust, or getting broken HOW does it change? (Vase, of course).

Time and indetermination are two separate measurements as are width and length. Time is that which is endurence indetermination is the change.

How do you measure this indetermination?

 

[DJA]

Oli,
Don't Supernova's result in black holes. And black holes eventually draw surrounding matter into them until they again explode. And this uses energy until entropy says that eventually all the energy wil be used? At least I thought that is how it works.
We determine the passage of time by a simple clock. The clock is an instument that measures the passage of time. However the changes in the clock as the changes in everything that exists are not measuring devices, the fact that everything is changing during the passage of time is the dimension I speak of. That is the indetermination that is the fifth dimension.
I did mean the sponteneity in man. Part of that sponteneity comes from the morality that man may have within him.
Don't you think Science is looking cosmically and quatumly for the cause of existence? This is what I am speaking of when I say science can discover God's creation or seek to attempt to give give meaning to it by the actual search. When science proceeds, it proceeds with purpose, don't you agree to that?
To measure indetermination you can see it by the changes in a thing as it proceeds in time. However once you measure the thing, it has already changed again. The wave falls ever so much more. The vase erodes just a little bit more, You only see the wave when you take the picture and look back then at how it was. With the vase, the change may be harder to detect as it is not a fluid, yet it still changes. Indetermination is that because of this dimension something is never quite the same, it changes from moment to moment. This is a dimention that can be measured in measuring a change in a moment then measuring it again. Take two pictures of a wave and you will see the change from one picture to the other. DJA

 

[Oli]

Don't Supernova's result in black holes.

Some do.

And black holes eventually draw surrounding matter into them until they again explode.

Only matter in their gravitational field. And they don't explode again.

And this uses energy until entropy says that eventually all the energy wil be used? At least I thought that is how it works.

Hawking radiation will get rid of black holes eventually...

We determine the passage of time by a simple clock. The clock is an instument that measures the passage of time. However the changes in the clock as the changes in everything that exists are not measuring devices, the fact that everything is changing during the passage of time is the dimension I speak of. That is the indetermination that is the fifth dimension.

Movement of the component parts is what measures the passage of time. Each movement is calculable.

I did mean the sponteneity in man. Part of that sponteneity comes from the morality that man may have within him.

Spontaneity comes from morality? How so?

Don't you think Science is looking cosmically and quatumly for the cause of existence?

Science is looking for whatever it can find.

This is what I am speaking of when I say science can discover God's creation or seek to attempt to give give meaning to it by the actual search.

But science doesn't view it as "god's creation", that's the difference in perspective. Meaning? Not really.

When science proceeds, it proceeds with purpose, don't you agree to that?

Mostly.

To measure indetermination you can see it by the changes in a thing as it proceeds in time. However once you measure the thing, it has already changed again. The wave falls ever so much more. The vase erodes just a little bit more, You only see the wave when you take the picture and look back then at how it was. With the vase, the change may be harder to detect as it is not a fluid, yet it still changes. Indetermination is that because of this dimension something is never quite the same, it changes from moment to moment. This is a dimention that can be measured in measuring a change in a moment then measuring it again. Take two pictures of a wave and you will see the change from one picture to the other. DJA

So indetermination is motion in a wave, rust in car, ageing in a human and erosion in a vase? You need a better measurement than that, especially since you stated:

If a dimension exists apart from being, it cannot be a dimension, As a dimension must exist. If it exists, it must be a measurable part of being.

 

[fLuX]

Original,
Yes, I know-I've thought that might be a point of confusion. But no...energy from a supernova moves through time to get to earth, but in that time, it changes as it moves. Remember the time machine. The man moves through time seemingly staying the same age. But for him, time inside the machine still moves-but he changes just as the world he moves through is changing on the outside. Time is a dimension that indetermination exists within actually.
If you go back to my original post-you will see that the only thing that does not change is God, who is present to all of time. Yet the things within that time are never determinate-never the same, They all have a dimention of change or being indeterminate.

I'm having some trouble finding a clear definition of your theory. Are you proposing that time as a dimension, contains another dimension that is the change of all objects/lifeforms moving through time itself?

Being that "The Time Machine" is fiction, its hard to relate that specific example to reality. Is your theory based on newtonian or einsteinian physics?

 

[andbna]

Indeterminent means that a thing changes constanly. It cannot stay the same because of this dimension. Change is not only inevitable it is a dimension that could be measured by the differences in the thing that changes from one moment to the next.......

Thats statement seems to nail home the idea that you are truly describing time.
At any given point in time, the state of all objects are fixed. Only through a change in time does anything else change.

How would a scientist explain......sponteniety?

Most relavent definition I found on Dictionary.com: "(of natural phenomena) arising from internal forces or causes; independent of external agencies; self-acting."
Seems like they would describe it using the normal laws of physics... surely you mean something else, but I'm not sure what it was.

So that being as it may, then even the gold in the center of the earth or on ,say a mineral composition of a meterorite, must experience some change at the quantum level. But here is where the argument is the weakest I think. What say you all?

I say "of course!" it experiances change at the quantum level... but I do not understand: what is the significance of this?

Sorry that I cannot see where you are going, but hopefully I will find out in eanoug posts...
-Andrew

 

[DJA]

Welcom fluX and hello again Andrew,
As time proceeds things with one, two and three dimensions are part of it. So is the fifth dimension of change. It's not that chage exists within thohe dimension of time but it is a dimension of things as is slength with and heighth.
I turned off the computer last night after my last post so I did not cathch up with all of you till this morning. I'm retired and discussing this is a joy with you all. Again, thanks.
DJA

 

[Oli]

As time proceeds things with one, two and three dimensions are part of it.

If there were no time it would be possible to postulate that length width and height still existed. (But no movement).

So is the fifth dimension of change. It's not that chage exists within thohe dimension of time but it is a dimension of things as is slength with and heighth.

If there were no time then there could be no change.

 

[DJA]

Oli
You might be correct in saying that if there were no time then the other dimensions might not exist. The flow of energy seems to have only time and indeterminence as it's dimensions without having the other three.
It seems to me that if an object with the three dimensions of length width and depth exists that the other two dimensions must also exist as part of the object too.
In E=MC squared matter is changed to energy . In becoming energy matter loses length width and depth while retaining time and indetermination.
If there was no dimension of time, it would necessarily follow that there would be no dimension of change. I would think it impossible for any "object" to exist without time and indetermination. Once an object comes to be, or exist, the fact that it exists means it exists in a dimension of time. Existence itself(pardon the strong leaning on metaphysics) is bound with time. So without time it seems nothing of other dimensions could exist.
DJA

 

[Oli]

You might be correct in saying that if there were no time then the other dimensions might not exist.

No, I'm saying the opposite: the other 3 might exist without time. But it would be an entirely static universe.

In E=MC squared matter is changed to energy . In becoming energy matter loses length width and depth while retaining time and indetermination.

I still haven't got my head round how indetermination differs from time.

If there was no dimension of time, it would necessarily follow that there would be no dimension of change.

Change IS time.

I would think it impossible for any "object" to exist without time and indetermination. Once an object comes to be, or exist, the fact that it exists means it exists in a dimension of time.

Unless it always existed.

 

[DJA]

Oli,
Change happens WITH time as change happens with the other three dimensions.

 

[original]

Think about this... if time passes and nothing changes, how would you be able to tell that time has passed?

If something changes but there is no indication that time has passed, how would you know that something has changed?

 

[DJA]

Original,
Are you speaking of nothing changes as if the vase would not have any change, or if the wave would not stop or if the Earth would not receive raditon from the sun? It seems to me that this is the same kind of paradox one would have like if a tree fallis in a forest but there is no one there to hear it, would the tree falling make a sound.
You can make a paradox of dimension in the way you state and it is astute of you do realize this. I just see the change in the wave as it happens and change as it is happening in everything so that nothing is the same from moment to moment as evrything has a dimension -nothing is the same from moment to moment....

 

[Oli]

Are you speaking of nothing changes as if the vase would not have any change, or if the wave would not stop or if the Earth would not receive raditon from the sun?

If there is no time then nothing can change.

It seems to me that this is the same kind of paradox one would have like if a tree fallis in a forest but there is no one there to hear it, would the tree falling make a sound.

Not at all.

You can make a paradox of dimension in the way you state and it is astute of you do realize this. I just see the change in the wave as it happens and change as it is happening in everything so that nothing is the same from moment to moment as evrything has a dimension -nothing is the same from moment to moment....

You see the change because you are aware of time passing. The wave alters from moment to moment. And moment to moment is how time passes.

 

[andbna]

Alright,
Let us consider dimensions.
Because any dimension can be represented as a dimension in math let's set up a function and see how many dimensions it has.
Now, lets say I shot a ball verticaly upwards at 10m/s on the earth.
Because we are so close to the earth, we can use g=9.8m/s^2. we will also assume there is no wind resistance.
Now, If I wanted to see how it's height (one spatial dimension) looked with respect to time (the time dimension) I could use the formula
h=0.5(9.8m/s^2)t^2+(10m/s)t
h and t are the change in height and the change in time respectivly, we will thus make our origin the time and height of launch.
What I have now is a 2 dimensional function showing the change in one spatial dimension with respect to time. I could exstend this to a 4-D graph no problem(except I couldnt visualize it) by saying X and Y movement is constant, and is 0 with respect to the origin, however we will keep it 2D for simplification, no need in wasting the last visualizable dimension we have and then another if the only data will be 0 on them
Now I say, using only those two dimension, without your fifth(third in this case), I can determin anything about my object. What have you to say?

Now is there another dimension in there apart from the spatial or time as you state? I have a 2D graph which can easily be extended to 3D to encompass your proposed dimension. Tell me, how does it fit in, why would I need to add a dimension to explain that which already appears explained by the mere two I have? If possible could you make a 3D graph incorporating this new dimension (I realise if it is only a theory this might unfeasable for you for some time untill it is developped more soundly, but it would help.)

Hopefully this will get some preogress on the topic
-Andrew

EDIT: to adress some posts.

Change happens WITH time as change happens with the other three dimensions

Here in lies the problem: time is change. Time itself does not change, If I had the ability to, from the outside, peer inside thisuniverse at any point and assuming i could gather information without disturbing the system at all then if i looked atthe same time twice, I would see the exact same thing both times. For instance if I have y=f(x) I can say that y is changing with respect to x, but I wouldnt say that x is changing at all.

 

[DJA]

Andrew,
By your first process I believe you are in fact measuring a dimension, not separating them. I have said that energy "seems" to have only two dimensions as force, or energy, either increases of decreases with time thus indicating it's change. The change that occurs is part of energy. But insofar as the other three dimensions with regard to energy, I know of no way of measuring them.
Using the ball to "see how it's heighth looked" (or measure it), with respect to time (another measurement) Then you are really "separating out" the dimensions for purposes of mesuring two dimensions, not actually separating them. The ball remains a ball and although there is no wind resistance(suppose this were done in a perfect vacuum or space, There would still be change at the quantum level in the iron ball.
Time exists as a dimension that can be measured. Change exists as part of everything that can be measured only by comparison of a thing at one point of time to another point of time. There is no thing that does not change and change is part of everything in existance. That is why it is a dimension- Indetermination-as a thing is never the same from moment to moment.
Oli,
Yes you are correct-If there is no time there would be no change. But then again if there would be no time, nothing would exist.

 

[DJA]

I have to correct myself again-"No thing would exist except God.(I can hear the groans now Oli(haha). DJA

 

[andbna]

Yes you are correct-If there is no time there would be no change. But then again if there would be no time, nothing would exist.

No, if there was no time, as Oli said, things would exist, but nothing would happen.
Proving this mathematicaly:
in my previouse function, x is time, and y changed with respect to x, but, I can have a function without x. lets say y=5
Boom, no time, but our hight is 5. It never changes, but it exists.
Consider it an alalogy:
If I have a video, we have the passage of time and the change of 2 spatial dimensions (lets say its of 2 balls bouncing this width and height) with time, but I can't have a video if I eliminate the time correct?
But I can have a photograph, in this case of 2 balls, which posses no value or dimension of time. The balls would always stay at the same positions, no time, but I still have the spa tial dimensions(remember this is an analogy so dont go saying the photograph wil change.)

Now, each variable in any given equation is a dimension, in my example I used two, a spatial(height) and time.
If there is another dimension to add to this, your 'indetermination' then it would be a varaible that I could add to the graph. You did not, as I request, show how it would fit in.

Change exists as part of everything that can be measured only by comparison of a thing at one point of time to another point of time.

So change is time.
Any dimension can only be measured by a comparison of a thing at one point/unit/value in the dimension in question to that of another.
Thus your argument, is that change exists as and can only be measured by time, would make change=time.
If change really is a dimension of its own, It could be varied without the use of another, eg I can have 2 different heights without varying the time (or having it at all) two different balls would do the trick.
-Andrew

 

[DJA]

Time is a dimention that it is theiretically able to travel back and forth along it's dimension.
I believe Einstein came up with the formula that said this may be possible.