AI is ridiculous concept that many misinterpret.

[Write4U]

You are assuming that "having Experiences" (with a capital E) is some mystical thing, rather than simply an attempt by a complex neural network to generate a sense of self.

And how subtle may this sense of self be? Does a watermolecule have a sense of self?
When we place a bunch a bunch of H and a bunch of O atoms in close proximity they "self-assemble" into H2O molecules. How do they do that? By unseen forces....?

 

[billvon]

No the capital puts Emphasis on the thing I want to talk about. You think it's Mystical because Science really cannot Explain it.

No, I think it's an evolutionary adaptation to enhance self-preservation.

When complex Neural Networks generate a sense of Self, what are they doing?

They are generating an awareness of themselves and their capabilities. Again, it's an evolutionary advantage to be aware of your own capabilities, and to see yourself as having consciousness and a unique viewpoint on the world.

 

[Write4U]

Evolutionary emergent qualities and abilities?

 

[billvon]

And how subtle may this sense of self be? Does a watermolecule have a sense of self?

Nope.

When we place a bunch a bunch of H and a bunch of O atoms in close proximity they "self-assemble" into H2O molecules. How do they do that?

Well, no, they don't.

I am sure you meant H2 and O2 since those are how those gases normally present. You can mix them and nothing will happen. You have to raise their temperature enough so that the thermal energy available is sufficient to overcome their inherent bonding forces. Hydrogen bonds are some of the strongest bonds there are, so it takes energy to overcome them.

However, once you've started that process, the process of combining the now-available hydrogen with oxygen is exothermic, and provides the energy to enable more H2 and O2 to combine. For a dramatic example of this, consider the space shuttle's main engines. That's how they get their power.

 

[Write4U]

Nope.

Doesn't that depend on the definition of "sense of self". Does being a self need to start as a conscious experience or just as a physical state of being itself?

Well, no, they don't.
I am sure you meant H2 and O2 since those are how those gases normally present. You can mix them and nothing will happen. You have to raise their temperature enough so that the thermal energy available is sufficient to overcome their inherent bonding forces. Hydrogen bonds are some of the strongest bonds there are, so it takes energy to overcome them.

Specific details aside, H2O is a self-assembling molecule, no? Water has not always existed, it was formed and it did so all by itself.

However, once you've started that process, the process of combining the now-available hydrogen with oxygen is exothermic, and provides the energy to enable more H2 and O2 to combine. For a dramatic example of this, consider the space shuttle's main engines. That's how they get their power.

I agree, but again, it depends on the definition of self, no?

Definition of self (Entry 3 of 5) 1a : having a single character or quality throughout specifically : having one color only a self flower. b : of the same kind (as in color, material, or pattern) as something with which it is used self trimming.

 

[billvon]

Doesn't that depend on the definition of "sense of self".

Of course it is possible to quibble over definitions, but I am not interested.

Specific details aside, H2O is a self-assembling molecule, no?

Under the right conditions, yes. Its formation is guided by physics, though, not any "sense of self."

 

[Write4U]

Of course it is possible to quibble over definitions, but I am not interested.

Under the right conditions, yes. Its formation is guided by physics, though, not any "sense of self."

Why are you making this so difficult? I am in total agreement with you. You are being the quibbler, please.

Under the right conditions, yes. Its formation is guided by physics, though, not any "sense of self."

Of course not, that comes later as an emergent evolutionary property of self-referential processes.

.. Signal --> Collection --> Transduction <--> Processing --> Action

 

[Steve Klinko]

No, I think it's an evolutionary adaptation to enhance self-preservation.

They are generating an awareness of themselves and their capabilities. Again, it's an evolutionary advantage to be aware of your own capabilities, and to see yourself as having consciousness and a unique viewpoint on the world.

Huge Explanatory Gap in saying: "They are generating an awareness of themselves and their capabilities."

 

[billvon]

Huge Explanatory Gap in saying: "They are generating an awareness of themselves and their capabilities."

There are a lot of huge evolutionary gaps. I am not saying that we know how it happened; I am saying that self-awareness has a clear evolutionary benefit, so evolution (which has produced every other aspect of our cognition) would target that as well.

 

[Steve Klinko]

There are a lot of huge evolutionary gaps. I am not saying that we know how it happened; I am saying that self-awareness has a clear evolutionary benefit, so evolution (which has produced every other aspect of our cognition) would target that as well.

If you are just saying that there is an Evolutionary benefit to Self Awareness then ok. I am always looking for the How of it, not the Why of it.

 

[Write4U]

If you are just saying that there is an Evolutionary benefit to Self Awareness then ok. I am always looking for the How of it, not the Why of it.

The Why drives the How.

Sensitivity to biological self-referential differential equations?

Saturday, October 03, 2020
What are Differential Equations and how do they work?

(This is a transcript of the video embedded below. Some parts of the text may not make sense without the graphics in the video.)

Today I want to talk about that piece of mathematics which describes, for all we currently know, everything: Differential Equations. Pandemic models? Differential equations. Expansion of the universe? Differential equations. Climate models? Differential equations. Financial markets? Differential equations. Quantum mechanics? Guess what, differential equations.

I find it hard to think of anything that’s more relevant for understanding how the world works than differential equations. Differential equations are the key to making predictions and to finding out what is predictable, from the motion of galaxies to the weather, to human behavior. In this video I will tell you what differential equations are and how they work, give you some simple examples, tell you where they are used in science today, and discuss what they mean for the question whether our future is determined already.

https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/10/what-are-differential-equations-and-how_3.html

Saturday, October 10, 2020
You don’t have free will, but don’t worry.

Today I want to talk about an issue that must have occurred to everyone who spent some time thinking about physics. Which is that the idea of free will is both incompatible with the laws of nature and entirely meaningless. I know that a lot of people just do not want to believe this. But I think you are here to hear what the science says. So, I will tell you what the science says. In this video I first explain why free will does not exist, indeed makes no sense, and then tell you why there are better things to worry about.

I want to say ahead that there is much discussion about free will in neurology, where the question is whether we subconsciously make decisions before we become consciously aware of having made one. I am not a neurologist, so this is not what I am concerned with here. I will be talking about free will as the idea that in this present moment, several futures are possible, and your “free will” plays a role for selecting which one of those possible futures becomes reality.

This, I think, is how most of us intuitively think of free will because it agrees with our experience of how the world seems to works. It is not how some philosophers have defined free will, and I will get to this later. But first, let me tell you what’s wrong with this intuitive idea that we can somehow select among possible futures.

https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/10/you-dont-have-free-will-but-dont-worry.html

 

[billvon]

If you are just saying that there is an Evolutionary benefit to Self Awareness then ok. I am always looking for the How of it, not the Why of it.

How what? How we have self awareness? We really don't - it's an illusion. For example, our brains commit to a course of action BEFORE we think about it and make a decision. That flies in the face of thinking we have free will and self determination but there it is.

 

[Steve Klinko]

The Why drives the How.

Sensitivity to biological self-referential differential equations?

Saturday, October 03, 2020
What are Differential Equations and how do they work?

(This is a transcript of the video embedded below. Some parts of the text may not make sense without the graphics in the video.) https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/10/what-are-differential-equations-and-how_3.html

Saturday, October 10, 2020
You don’t have free will, but don’t worry.

https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/10/you-dont-have-free-will-but-dont-worry.html

The Why does not drive any particular How. There will be multiple Hows for any Why.

 

[Steve Klinko]

How what? How we have self awareness? We really don't - it's an illusion. For example, our brains commit to a course of action BEFORE we think about it and make a decision. That flies in the face of thinking we have free will and self determination but there it is.

You are obviously a follower of Dennett. If you believe that Conscious Experiences like Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty Taste are Illusions then there is little that I will be able to say to convince you otherwise. What I would suggest is to think more Deeply about these Conscious Experiences. Most people will eventually understand the separate Reality of these things after some study.

 

[billvon]

You are obviously a follower of Dennett.

I don't know who Dennett is.

If you believe that Conscious Experiences like Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty Taste are Illusions then there is little that I will be able to say to convince you otherwise.

If you think your experience of redness is the same as mine, or the same as some sort of standard experience, then yes - that is an illusion. Only the effect it has upon you, measured in your output, matters. You could see red and experience exactly the same thing I experience when I see green. Does that mean your "redness" is an illusion? Or mine?

 

[Write4U]

Does that mean your "redness" is an illusion? Or mine?

When we agree on our illusions (hallucinations) we call that Reality, (Anil Seth)

 

[Steve Klinko]

I don't know who Dennett is.

If you think your experience of redness is the same as mine, or the same as some sort of standard experience, then yes - that is an illusion. Only the effect it has upon you, measured in your output, matters. You could see red and experience exactly the same thing I experience when I see green. Does that mean your "redness" is an illusion? Or mine?

That's just an Obscuration of the issue. Of course nobody expects your Experience of Redness and mine to be exactly the same when looking at the same Red object. But it is likely that the Redness that you Experience and mine are very very similar. We don't have the technology to compare this yet.

 

[Steve Klinko]

When we agree on our illusions (hallucinations) we call that Reality, (Anil Seth)

That is awake Conscious Experience. So?

 

[Write4U]

That is awake Conscious Experience. So?

And physical reality doesn't go away when we are asleep or anesthesized, even as we lose conscious awareness of it.

Homeostasis (subconscious internal control functions), continues to function when we are asleep or anesthesized. That resides in a different part of the brain (Level II), which monitors the internal world of the microbiome.

Homeostasis

In biology, homeostasis is the state of steady internal, physical, and chemical conditions maintained by living systems.[1] This is the condition of optimal functioning for the organism and includes many variables, such as body temperature and fluid balance, being kept within certain pre-set limits (homeostatic range). Other variables include the pH of extracellular fluid, the concentrations of sodium, potassium and calcium ions, as well as that of the blood sugar level, and these need to be regulated despite changes in the environment, diet, or level of activity. Each of these variables is controlled by one or more regulators or homeostatic mechanisms, which together maintain life.

And here is the pertinent part!!!

Homeostasis is brought about by a natural resistance to change when already in the optimal conditions,[2] and equilibrium is maintained by many regulatory mechanisms. All homeostatic control mechanisms have at least three interdependent components for the variable being regulated: a receptor, a control centre, and an effector.[3]

The receptor is the sensing component that monitors and responds to changes in the environment, either external or internal. Receptors include thermoreceptors, and mechanoreceptors. Control centres include the respiratory centre, and the renin–angiotensin system. An effector is the target acted on, to bring about the change back to the normal state. At the cellular level, receptors include nuclear receptors that bring about changes in gene expression through up-regulation or down-regulation, and act in negative feedback mechanisms. An example of this is in the control of bile acids in the liver.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis

Consciousness is "awareness" of exterior stimuli and ability to detect "differentials" against "stored memory". This then requires conscious action to maintain "equilibrium" with the exterior.

 

[Steve Klinko]

And physical reality doesn't go away when we are asleep or anesthesized, even as we lose conscious awareness of it.

Homeostasis (subconscious internal control functions), continues to function when we are asleep or anesthesized. That resides in a different part of the brain (Level II), which monitors the internal world of the microbiome.

Homeostasis
And here is the pertinent part!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis

Consciousness is "awareness" of exterior stimuli and ability to detect "differentials" against "stored memory". This then requires conscious action to maintain "equilibrium" with the exterior.

But how does any of this get us closer to understanding or Explaining things like Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty Taste?