An Unlikely scenario - but just suppose .....

lightgigantic said:
one of the reasons I originally made this post was to point out the fallibility of arguments against religious practice on the basis of social paradigms that are basically godless (in other words, modern society).

You know, arguments that basically boil down to "theism is rubbish because people take it so seriously (ie make life decisions based on it)"
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I'm not sure I understand.
You mean arguments like "Even if I would have a realization of God, this wouldn't affect the way I live my life because my life is my own" -?

You said -
I just want to get some idea of an atheists/agnostics perspective of the significance of values/goals/needs of a theist established in such a realisation.
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- Whether atheists/agnostics think that religion is like a cloak one dons on occasion, but can easily take it off?
 
greenberg said:
I'm not sure I understand.
You mean arguments like "Even if I would have a realization of God, this wouldn't affect the way I live my life because my life is my own" -?

You said -
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yes, that's basically it - kind of like an inability to take on board(even theoretically) that issues of one's self are precisely what is contextualized by a solid comprehension of god's nature

- Whether atheists/agnostics think that religion is like a cloak one dons on occasion, but can easily take it off?
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I guess that is what they generally think - so I guess they must be working with specific values (and I would gather that those values are somewhat different from what was offered in the OP)
 
SnakeLord said:
Atheist.



Depends entirely upon what god it is.
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gave a suggested qualitative phrase in the OP

It innvolves that one theoretically assume that they were to suddenly have an irrevocable conviction that god exists - meaning that they were to suddenly realise that the entire manifested and unmanifested substance of their seeing and even one's own sense of self had directly emanated from god.
 
O..k, and to answer in what ways it would restructure ones life would invariably depend upon what god it is.

If I were to suddenly have an irrevocable conviction that Allah exists I very well might abandon eating pork, drinking alcohol, or considering women as equals. It would vary depending upon which god it is.
 
lightgigantic said:
yes, that's basically it - kind of like an inability to take on board(even theoretically) that issues of one's self are precisely what is contextualized by a solid comprehension of god's nature


I guess that is what they generally think - so I guess they must be working with specific values (and I would gather that those values are somewhat different from what was offered in the OP)
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I suppose I cannot relate here. I suppose I am not the typical atheists/agnostic.

For as long as I remember, I thought believing in God was supposed to be all about being happy - and I mean the kind of happy that is beyond aging, illness, and death -, that believing in God was supposed to be about not feeling separated from God, happy to have been created, every moment of every day, feeling it with every fibre of one's being.

Christianity as I was taught it for the most part didn't fit this, it didn't say such things - but I inferred them from some of the things it did say -, and all the people who claimed to believe in God didn't seem happy to me at all. I think it was in response to the fire and brimstone that I have pushed my notion of belief in God aside, labelled it "idealistic nonsense", and instead went for a more "realistic", guilt-driven, eternal shame and guilt and punishment version of belief in God - it simply seemed more plausible to think that this is what believing in God is about.

- But perhaps other atheists/agnostics have had similar experiences as I, but didn't have the chance yet to work through them.
 
SnakeLord said:
O..k, and to answer in what ways it would restructure ones life would invariably depend upon what god it is.

If I were to suddenly have an irrevocable conviction that Allah exists I very well might abandon eating pork, drinking alcohol, or considering women as equals. It would vary depending upon which god it is.
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Ok so I guess your answer to the first q might be something like

In what ways would this restructure one's life?
I might very well adopt various sub-religious principles that go along with the formal adherence of obedience to god.

the questions tend to get a bit more specific as you go down. For instance the next one

Would it warrant a difference in the organisation or the valuing of ones ideals?

approaches how you would expect to deal with value conflicts which would inevitably arise
 
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It depends on the nature of the God you realize. If it's deist, you might not change anything you do.
 
But does a deist god exist?
Is it possible that a god would set up the Universe and then not have anything to do with it?
 
greenberg said:
But does a deist god exist?
Is it possible that a god would set up the Universe and then not have anything to do with it?
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Why not ? He could create it and leave it to its own devices while he went off to create a few more messes elsewhere.
 
Ok so I guess your answer to the first q might be something like

In what ways would this restructure one's life?
I might very well adopt various sub-religious principles that go along with the formal adherence of obedience to god.
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Or my first answer might be something like "depends which god it is", which it would. If you decide to be specific then I can be more specific.

the questions tend to get a bit more specific as you go down. For instance the next one

Would it warrant a difference in the organisation or the valuing of ones ideals?
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Depends which god it is.
 
spidergoat said:
Deism means God set up the universe, but doesn't care about our personal lives.
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so why wouldn't that raise issues with these?


In what ways would it change what one considered important and what one considered unimportant?

Would it affect one's notions of happines/distress in the world?
 
SnakeLord said:
Or my first answer might be something like "depends which god it is", which it would. If you decide to be specific then I can be more specific.



Depends which god it is.
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erm - I guess it also depends on how you view your values ... which is the general direction of the q ...
:shrug:
 
lightgigantic said:
so why wouldn't that raise issues with these?


In what ways would it change what one considered important and what one considered unimportant?

Would it affect one's notions of happines/distress in the world?
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Would a deist god set up the universe and make it operate by the law of karma?

If yes, then this would of course have impact on what one would consider important in life and what notions of happiness/distress one would have.
- But! This would only be so if people would be or could become privy to the law of karma and how it works; which means that some element of divine self-revelation -and thereby God's interaction with his creation- would be necessary.

If not, then I think the situation would be hopeless - there would be no way to distinguish between good and bad (not even on a subjective level); there would be no possibility for realization; one might seek to do good, or to do evil - it would make no difference.

I think the prospects are the same if the Universe would be created by an evil god, or by an insane god, or not created at all, or by a deist god who didn't set up the law of karma, or by a deist god who set it up in a manner that humans could not penetrate it.
 
erm - I guess it also depends on how you view your values ... which is the general direction of the q
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I don't see how you can raise problem with my statement which you must surely recognise as being valid? What we would or would not do depends entirely upon which god it is. If you expect an answer beyond that perhaps you should learn how to be a tad more specific. Which god have we gained irrevocable conviction of?

C'mon Lg, a little more than pointless one-liners if you can manage it. :shrug:
 
spidergoat said:
It depends on the nature of the God you realize.
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lightgigantic said:
why is that?
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Consider: If the god you realize is evil or insane, then by virtue of this realization you'd become evil or insane as well - in which case we cannot really meaningfully speak of how this would affect your life, your values, your view of suffering and happiness - as it would all become evil or insane and as such not conducive to rational analysis.

But if the god you realize is good, then by virtue of this realization you'd become good as well, no? Otherwise, it wouldn't be a realization.

- My reasoning here is that realization would necessarily mean a "merging", a "unison", a "not distinguishable one from another anymore".


This topic of trying to gauge what the realization of God might be like is very difficult to discuss - as long as we don't have such a realization.
 
lightgigantic said:
one theoretically assume that they were to suddenly have an irrevocable conviction that god exists - meaning that they were to suddenly realise that the entire manifested and unmanifested substance of their seeing and even one's own sense of self had directly emanated from god.
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hell of a poorly written statement, but I think we can understand.
lightgigantic said:
How it happened that one developed this conviction, why it happened etc etc is not the issue of this thread.

The question of this thread is

In what ways would this restructure one's life?
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firstly; which god are you referring too?
sort that out and I answer the rest.
 
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