Believing in an afterlife

[davewhite04]

Why?

Note: I am not saying you're wrong, simply that your conclusion is based on weak premises.



I'm not trying to prove anything - unlike you, I've made no claims. I'm simply pointing out that your conclusion is an overreach.



Them's trollin' words.

If you have to troll, you've lost control.

Archeology points to worship maybe in prehistoric time, to suggest some sort of spiritulism existed before worhip to the gods is pure conjecture, no evidence.

Science is on my side as is common sense.

You don't have a case.

Can you remember what stance you are defending?

 

[DaveC426913]

Archeology points to worship maybe in prehistoric time, to suggest some sort of spiritulism existed before worhip to the gods is pure conjecture, no evidence.

Science is on my side as is common sense.

See my analogy to dinosaur fossils.

Your while argument rests on the analogous premise that the only animals that ever existed are the ones we have found fossils for.

You don't have a case.

Nor do I need one. I am simply pointing out that your argument is indefensible.

You are effectively claiming you can be sure that the only creatures that might have existed in prehistory are the ones science has turned up fossils for.

That is not science, that is an abuse of it.

 

[davewhite04]

See my analogy to dinosaur fossils.

Your while argument rests on the analogous premise that the only animals that ever existed are the ones we have found fossils for.


Nor do I need one. I am simply pointing out that your argument is indefensible.

You are effectively claiming you can be sure that the only creatures that might have existed in prehistory are the ones science has turned up fossils for.

That is not science, that is an abuse of it.

What are you talking about fossils for?

Did people think they turned into spirits and existed before a belief in gods?

What do you think?

EDIT: Yes or No will do.

 

[DaveC426913]

What are you talking about fossils for?

I fear that you have not been following along. Please reread, so I don't have to repeat myself.

The fossil analogy makes quite clear the folly of assuming the given body of evidence we have is all the evidence we need to have in order to so confidently claim that things don't or can't exist.

That's just not how science works.

A hundred - a thousand - records of religious afterlifers says nothing about cultures of non-religious afterlife that have not had their histories preserved to the present.

You know the lesson of the black swan? "I have only seen white swans, therefore black swans do not exist".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

 

[davewhite04]

I fear that you have not been following along. Please reread, so I don't have to repeat myself.

The fossil analogy makes quite clear the folly of assuming the given body of evidence we have is all the evidence we need to have in order to so confidently claim that things don't or can't exist.

That's just not how science works.

A hundred - a thousand - records of religious afterlifers says nothing about cultures of non-religious afterlife that have not had their histories preserved to the present.

You know the lesson of the black swan? "I have only seen white swans, therefore black swans do not exist".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

So is that a yes or no?

The whole point was to prove that afterlife belief went hand in hand with a divine belief. History is littered with evidence. There isn't any evidence of becoming a spirit in a none religious context.

Or is it lack of evidence isn't evidence, which is a cop out in this context.

 

[DaveC426913]

The whole point was to prove that afterlife belief went hand in hand with a divine belief. History is littered with evidence. There isn't any evidence of becoming a spirit in a none religious context.

Well, you haven't proven it.

Evidence is not proof. Evidence of white swans - even if the lakes are "littered" with them - is in no way proof that black swans don't exist.

This is a well-established principle in disciplines such as archaeology, anthropology, biology and paleobiology.

We know we don't have a comprehensive picture in these disciplines, and we know we can't confidently say things can't be so. That is the nature of this beast.

 

[davewhite04]

Well, you haven't proven it.

I've got a lot more evidence for my case, hence my original response.

 

[DaveC426913]

I've got a lot more evidence for my case, hence my original response.

Nope. A thousand white swans does not prove there are no black swans.

 

[davewhite04]

Nope. A thousand white swans does not prove there are no black swans.

Whatever Dave...

EDIT: I can visualise now the cavemen dancing around a fire with their clubs with the spirits of their dead, who exist somewhere with no higher power.

 

[DaveC426913]

Whatever Dave...

Perfect. My work here is done, for now.

 

[davewhite04]

Perfect. My work here is done, for now.

What work was that?

 

[foghorn]

I can visualise now the cavemen dancing around a fire with their clubs with the spirits of their dead, who exist somewhere with no higher power.

Dave, that’s where your own beliefs of taking the idea of an afterlife as a fact gets you.
Just because there maybe a non-religious reason for the origin of the idea of an afterlife, that doesn’t mean there really is an afterlife.
And, since somewhere you mentioned "scientific," then you will be able to show the scientific proof of the afterlife you believe in.

 

[gmilam]

It seems obvious to me. A loved one was here and now they are not. Would it not be normal to wonder where "they" went? And to imagine them somewhere hunting the (insert local game animal here) with dad and grand dad? No religion required, just a longing for those you love who have "moved on".

 

[davewhite04]

Dave, that’s where your own beliefs of taking the idea of an afterlife as a fact gets you.

It has got nothing to do with my beliefs, all that common sense tells me is that religious beliefs came before spiritualism. Not the other way around. If you want to believe that none belief in an afterlife still results in spiritualism be my guest.

Just because there maybe a non-religious reason for the origin of the idea of an afterlife, that doesn’t mean there really is an afterlife.

An afterlife doesn't need to exist for us to query what the ancients believed. It's called philosophy. You seem to believe that there was a non religious origin for an afterlife, I ask, prove it. All the proof I have says the opposite.

And, since somewhere you mentioned "scientific," then you will be able to show the scientific proof of the afterlife you believe in.

Archaeology is what I'm referring to. A social science.

End of, unless you prove otherwise.

 

[davewhite04]

It seems obvious to me. A loved one was here and now they are not. Would it not be normal to wonder where "they" went? And to imagine them somewhere hunting the (insert local game animal here) with dad and grand dad? No religion required, just a longing for those you love who have "moved on".

Without a belief they are worm food. Think atheist.

 

[DaveC426913]

It has got nothing to do with my beliefs, all that common sense tells me is...

Just gonna leave this here.

 

[foghorn]

Games? " Proof."

An afterlife doesn't need to exist for us to query what the ancients believed. It's called philosophy. You seem to believe that there was a non religious origin for an afterlife, I ask, prove it. All the proof I have says the opposite.

My bold
Games?
Didn’t you read DaveC42 and his fossils. You didn’t seem to understand where he was coming from.
Does Your "proof" prove my idea about the non-religious and non-deity origin of the idea of an afterlife is impossible? (Black Swans).

 

[DaveC426913]

"Members of some generally non-theistic religions believe in an afterlife without reference to a deity."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife

So, that passage obliquely refutes DaveWhites04 premise, unfortunately, without specifics, it's pretty hard to put the nail in the coffin. It would requote further research.

 

[gmilam]

Without a belief they are worm food. Think atheist.

Even with belief they are worm food.

Religion wasn't gifted to us from a divine source, religion arose out of the imagination and desires of humans. And part of that desire is wishing your loved ones were still around somewhere.

Think about it theist! Religion, spirituality and plain old superstition arose from a desire to explain the unknown.

 

[Magical Realist]

Bear in mind that one of the oldest religions on earth, Hinduism, doesn't even posit an afterlife. It believes in reincarnation in which one simple returns to this world over and over. So there is no necessary linkage between believing in an afterlife and believing in a god.