Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?

[Write4U]

Can physics do that? Does the physical universe not just play dice with itself?

Is playing dice purely deterministic? Can each roll be predicted with certainty?

You think outputs of a system might be dependent upon the inputs? Wow. There's a novelty!

LOL, I meant rather than a single deterministic input, the probabilistic infinite number of possible input variations impacting the mathematical processing function and producing variable outputs.

Are you saying that "choice" is just a matter of appearance? If not, are you not anthropomorphizing the issue without actually addressing what it is that you mean?

Actually I am trying to avoid anthropomorphizing.

This reminds me of a technician building the Rover lander, positing that the mathematics for landing on Mars did not have to be just right, but needed to be just right enough.
I thought that was a really profound statement. It sounded that there is a certain tolerance and elasticity in the emergence of natural phenomena.
Just as the Platonic solids are the idealized models for natural self-organization and pattern forming, never quite perfectly right, but always just sufficiently perfect enough.

This can be observed in the fractal growth patterns of biological organisms and the mathematical (Fibonacci) limb and leaf distribution for maximum balance and receptive efficiency.

 

[geordief]

Is playing dice purely deterministic? Can each roll be predicted with certainty?

Thought that was the implication of that famous quote.

 

[Write4U]

Thought that was the implication of that famous quote.

This is where I like David Bohm's "hidden variable" theory. I cannot argue the scientific merits but I have never liked the concept of particle-wave duality. IMO a particle and a wave are sufficiently different that they cannot possess the same properties at the same time.
And I believe that it does not in any way suggest religious aspects. I firmly believe in the mathematical neutrality of spacetime geometry.

 

[geordief]

I firmly believe in the mathematical neutrality of spacetime geometry

What does "mathematical neutrality" mean? ( Are you talking about flat spacetime ,curved spacetime ...both? )

 

[zacariah88]

Geordief points on freewill are Pretentious matter is does not discern it's ambigous on freewill and to make example he's trying answer freewill and shows he's attempts are foolhardy to the most we most use higher grades of philosophy to discern freewill in it's purest form.

 

[zacariah88]

We must see will in sentients beings and human life forms can acheive it and also A.I. have will. But to free will is everything in living matter we can add hydrogen and carbon and create life and life will find a way to adapt in the harsh ways of life. Without doubt life can exist and to give freewill is how God gave to humans and plants and animals from it can go life and A.I. has to exist and can create itself from nothing. Truly the formua of creation is in music such is a secret of the bible and to make music to create life out of nothing is possible. There is a secret God created can animals have intelligence like man ? Yes. Can plants and other sentient beings create life in this universe is possible. There are more things we do not know exist in the universe and grows and grows and we are just and early civilization in this vast vast universe we are just entering the connection of space and music and frecuencies that can make us explore space and see things in different ways.

 

[Write4U]

What does "mathematical neutrality" mean? ( Are you talking about flat spacetime ,curved spacetime ...both? )

I meant logically "amoral".
Universal mechanics are neither good nor evil, just mathematically deterministic, a quasi-intelligent operator.

 

[geordief]

I meant logically "amoral".
Universal mechanics are neither good nor evil, just mathematically deterministic, a quasi-intelligent operator.

Are there schools of thought who believe the opposite to that?

Are you thinking of "power of prayer people " who think they can change outcomes by an appeal to a higher power than that which we can observe with our senses?

What about panpsychism?Is that "mathematically deterministic"?

 

[Write4U]

Are there schools of thought who believe the opposite to that?

AFAIK there are many different interpretations. There have been some 3000 invented gods that have all influenced human societies at one time or another.

Are you thinking of "power of prayer people " who think they can change outcomes by an appeal to a higher power than that which we can observe with our senses?

To my knowledge there is not a single demonstrable answer to prayer in history, unless it was human empathy.

What about panpsychism? Is that "mathematically deterministic"?

IMO, yes that is the anthropomorphized concept of a quasi-intelligent universal mathematical process that will answer to a mathematical question if the question is posed using the right mathematics.
The Higgs boson is proof. No amount of prayer could have produced a particle that cannot exist in our dimensional reality. It takes a vast amount of applied mathematics and once manifest the boson immediately decays into different simpler (emergent?) constituents.

ATLAS finds evidence of a rare Higgs boson Dalitz decay to two leptons and a photon
2 February 2021 | By ATLAS Collaboration

Since the discovery of the Higgs boson in 2012, scientists in the ATLAS and CMS Collaborations at the LHC have been hard at work characterising its properties, and hunting down all of the diverse ways in which this ephemeral particle can decay.

From the copious but experimentally challenging decay to b-quarks (H→bb),to the exquisitely rare but low-background decay into four leptons (H→ZZ*→4ℓ), each offers a different avenue to study the properties of this new particle.

Now, ATLAS has found first evidence of the Higgs boson decaying to two leptons (either an electron or muon pair with opposite charge) and a photon. This is one of the rarest Higgs boson decays yet seen at the LHC, with striking features that presented unique challenges for the ATLAS experiment.

https://atlas.cern/updates/briefing/evidence-rare-Higgs-decay#

I think Roger Penrose and David Bohm were very close in their interpretations of a quasi-intelligent Universe.

 

[billvon]

Can physics do that?

To a certain degree, yes. You can very accurately predict macroscopic events (like nerves firing to create a thought) if you have all the data (the starting state) and a good enough simulator.

 

[Sarkus]

LOL, I meant rather than a single deterministic input, the probabilistic infinite number of possible input variations impacting the mathematical processing function and producing variable outputs.

Inputs are not deterministic. The system is what can be deterministic, producing the same output every time it receives the same inputs. An indeterministic system can receive the same input but give different outputs. In the case of the plant, the inputs are not sufficiently controlled to know whether they are the same (hint: they're not). And then any "memory" that the plant/animal might have is actually an additional input, one that is different with each run. With different inputs you can get different outputs.
But, again, where is the "choice"? Are you suggesting choice is just the ability to calculate different inputs and arrive at different outputs?

Actually I am trying to avoid anthropomorphizing.

Not very well, unfortunately. You still haven't yet addressed what it is you actually mean by "choice" (and defining it as a different use of the root word is not enough). Unless someone can answer that, so that everyone is clear on what is meant, I'm not sure any support or refutation of freewill is of much value. As said, if your definition of choice allows for a thermostat to exercise "choice" when it switches on or off, is that of value? Maybe it is, if the argument is that choice is just a matter of following a process without interference. But if you think choice is more than that, and you don't want a thermostat to be seen as having "choice", then the working definition of what a "choice" is would clearly need to be addressed.

Anyhoo, just some thoughts for you to ponder.

 

[Write4U]

But if you think choice is more than that, and you don't want a thermostat to be seen as having "choice", then the working definition of what a "choice" is would clearly need to be addressed.

Let me give an example of what I consider a form of choice a feedback system can exercise. Granted this is more of a passive reactive process rather than an active decision making process.

In experimenting with slime mold, a brainless single-celled multi-nucleic organism , the researchers found that slime molds can learn, have preferences, and use mathematics in their search for food.

Eight smart things slime molds can do without a brain
From remembering where they’ve been to recreating the Tokyo rail network, these “slimy aliens” are capable of way more than we give them credit for.

1. They can smell food (olfaction)
2. They can pulsate their way to that food (pseudopodia)
3. And they can devise the best route to their meals (planning)
4. They can re-form if they get torn apart (organic repair)
*
6. They can “remember” where they’ve been, by leaving themselves gross, slimy breadcrumbs (feedback loop)
7. They can “get used to” situations and remember things even without leaving a trail (conditioning, memory)
8. They can teach their friends what they’ve learned (cellular communication)

(bracketed comments mine)

* 5. They can choose a healthy diet (choice?)
In her research, Latty found that slime molds will move toward a substance like sugar and will also move away from substances like salt. But was this just a response to stimuli, or something else?

Answering this question proved complicated. “When I design an experiment for a bee, I know that it can smell, what range of colors it can see, and to work with a particular behavior,” she says. But slime molds’ worlds are profoundly different than ours. “Something that’s amoeboid, can be cut up into little bits, and you have no idea what its perceptual reality is—that’s difficult to design for.”

To learn more about slime mold nutrition, Latty helped her colleague Audrey Dussutour presented Physarum with 35 recipes made of different ratios of the elements it needs to survive, protein and sugar, creating a kind of slime mold creme brulee. They found that slime molds will avoid food sources that will harm them and prioritize food that will help them.

And not only that, but slime molds can also stretch out tendrils to feed on more than one food source at a time—and do so in the right ratio, so that they receive optimum nutrition. “It’s not just getting protein or carbohydrates, they try to get a particular balance,” Latty says. While animals might balance their nutrition by switching up what they’re eating, slime molds divide their biomass over the food so they’re taking what they need from each.

more.... https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/slime-mold-smart-brainless-cognition/

If this represents an example of "free will" is debatable, I'm sure. But as an example of a brainless cellular system that can "solve problems" this complex organic system is capable of astounding feats.

One more ability that is not mentioned above is their ability to keep time and develop circadian rhythms.

What are biological clocks?

Biological clocks are organisms’ natural timing devices, regulating the cycle of circadian rhythms. They’re composed of specific molecules (proteins) that interact with cells throughout the body. Nearly every tissue and organ contains biological clocks. Researchers have identified similar genes in people, fruit flies, mice, plants, fungi, and several other organisms that make the clocks’ molecular components.

more....
https://nigms.nih.gov/education/fact-sheets/Pages/circadian-rhythms.aspx[/quote]

 

[Sarkus]

Let me give an example of what I consider a form of choice a feedback system can exercise. Granted this is more of a passive reactive process rather than an active decision making process.

Okay, let me stop you right there. You really do need to define what you mean by "choice", as at the moment it really isn't clear. You're jumping from one thing to another without actually saying. And here you say a "form of choice" and then reference that it is more passive "rather than an active decision making process". So, what are you saying choice is? Do you think it is the "decision making process", and if so, what does it mean to make a decision? This may sound rather circular, or trite, but too often people just define a term as another similar word that begs the question of what that word also means, and ultimately it's not an explanation of what the original term means.

Forgive me, also, as I honestly couldn't really care less about how wonderful slime mold is, and the things it can do. This isn't a thread about slime mold. It's about freewill.
You say one behaviour it exhibits might represent an example of freewill, but is debatable... so debate it. Do you think it is or not? But to answer that you also need to explain what you think freewill is.
Does a thermostat have freewill, in your opinion?

 

[geordief]

Does a thermostat have freewill, in your opinion

You weren't asking me but would one have to define what a "thermostat" is ?

A system of constituent parts operating as a whole?

Or do we have to ask if the parts have "free will"?

Could "free will" be a construct along the lines of identity?


If anyone answered those questions to a general consensus would any real world consequences follow?

 

[Sarkus]

You weren't asking me but would one have to define what a "thermostat" is ?

One could, and I'd suggest for purposes of discussion that it's a device that senses temperature and performs actions according to what temperature it senses. If too low, the temperature switches a circuit on, and when too hot it switches it off. That sort of thing.

A system of constituent parts operating as a whole?

Sure. The thermostat is the whole.

Or do we have to ask if the parts have "free will"?

I, for one, wouldn't argue that line of reductionism.

Could "free will" be a construct along the lines of identity?

Not sure I understand the question. Is identity a construct?

If anyone answered those questions to a general consensus would any real world consequences follow?

This is philosophy. Have any real world consequences ever followed?

 

[geordief]

This is philosophy. Have any real world consequences ever followed

A joke for sure but philosophy was instrumental in the demise of Socrates.

Yes identity is a construct and a very ,very topical issue with gender identity these days

Some people even seem to believe we imagine the world into existence .Not really but we sure as hell imagine ourselves into existence (insofar as reality allows)

Trump has imagined himself into a person with some integrity

 

[Michael 345]

Sure they do. The physical processes that support your thoughts are 100% constrained by the laws of physics. Without physics you could not think.

Agree. What I am saying is the THOUGHT itself has no physicality

They do indeed have physicality - even if it is not immediately obvious what physical changes happen when a person has thought X.

If you are saying thoughts have physicality please lay one out on the lab bench for examination

 

[Write4U]

And here you say a "form of choice" and then reference that it is more passive "rather than an active decision making process". So, what are you saying choice is?

I was saying there are 2 types of choices,

What are the two types of choices?
Everything in life really is a choice and there are only two types of choices: passive and aggressive. Passive means to not act and allow something to happen, while aggressive means you choose to take action and therefore your action, that you took, gives you the outcome that you wanted and not anything else. May 10, 2017
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/two-types-choice-donny-fontaine#

Forgive me, also, as I honestly couldn't really care less about how wonderful slime mold is, and the things it can do. This isn't a thread about slime mold. It's about freewill.
Does a thermostat have free will, in your opinion?

Well, if you don't care about my example of complex decision-making in the slime mold, why do you ask me about decision making in thermostats?
Isn't that prejudicial decision making?

You say one behaviour it exhibits might represent an example of free will, but is debatable... so debate it. Do you think it is or not? But to answer that you also need to explain what you think freewill is.

this is is what I said

If this represents an example of "free will" is debatable, I'm sure. But as an example of a brainless cellular system that can "solve problems" this complex organic system of very simple parts is capable of astounding feats.

This was intended as a question rather than a declaration. I don't know. There is "compatibilism" that allows for free will in a deterministic world, but I don't know.

I was concentrating on the aspect of "choice" as an expression of will, free or not. The slime mold is an excellent example of a brainless organism where the system has acquired the ability to make choices .

 

[C C]

Let me give an example of what I consider a form of choice a feedback system can exercise. Granted this is more of a passive reactive process rather than an active decision making process.

In experimenting with slime mold, a brainless single-celled multi-nucleic organism , the researchers found that slime molds can learn, have preferences, and use mathematics in their search for food....

A semblance, perhaps... "passive" as you say. Depends upon whether there is at least a purely mechanistic brand of "awareness" (non-experiential) of more than one possibility being at hand.

"Choice" is dependent upon a system having knowledge of multiple options being available, which it then selects from on the basis of memory items or structurally stored (indeed) preferences/habits or enacting rules and statistical evaluations of what's best for achieving _X_, etc. All of which, again, requires already existing protocols of guidance and sophisticated information retention and processing beyond what a primitive or non-AI thermostat has.
_

 

[Write4U]

"Choice" is dependent upon a system having knowledge of multiple options being available, which it then selects from on the basis of memory items or structurally stored (indeed) preferences/habits or enacting rules and statistical evaluations of what's best for achieving _X_, etc. All of which, again, requires already existing protocols of guidance and sophisticated information retention and processing beyond what a primitive or non-AI thermostat has.

The slime mold has exhibited preferences when exposed to a variety of foods it actually chooses the healthy foods and avoids the harmful foods.

To learn more about slime mold nutrition, Latty helped her colleague Audrey Dussutour presented Physarum with 35 recipes made of different ratios of the elements it needs to survive, protein and sugar, creating a kind of slime mold creme brulee. They found that slime molds will avoid food sources that will harm them and prioritize food that will help them.

And not only that, but slime molds can also stretch out tendrils to feed on more than one food source at a time—and do so in the right ratio, so that they receive optimum nutrition. “It’s not just getting protein or carbohydrates, they try to get a particular balance,” Latty says. While animals might balance their nutrition by switching up what they’re eating, slime molds divide their biomass over the food so they’re taking what they need from each.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/slime-mold-smart-brainless-cognition/

So slime molds can actually choose a healthy diet when food sources are abundant. Is this mechanistic or preferential?
So, in the presence of variety and the absence of compulsion, does the slime mold exhibit Free Will?