Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?

Do you believe you have freewill

  • yes

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • no

    Votes: 6 54.5%

  • Total voters
    11
Ran across this excellent article describing plant "awareness" and ability to "solve existential problems".

The secret life of plants: how they memorise, communicate, problem solve and socialise
.......

Before Mancuso’s lab started work in 2005, plant neurobiology was largely seen as a laughable concept. “We were interested in problems that were, until that moment, just related to animals, like intelligence and even behaviour,” he says. At the time, it was “almost forbidden” to talk about behaviour in plants. But “we study how plants are able to solve problems, how they memorise, how they communicate, how they have their social life and things like that”.
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Flower power ... Mancuso’s team has shown that Mimosa pudica can retain learned information for weeks. Photograph: Alamy
Mancuso and his colleagues have become experts in training plants, just like neuroscientists train lab rats. If you let a drop of water fall on a Mimosa pudica, its kneejerk response is to recoil its leaves, but, if you continue doing so, the plant will quickly cotton on that the water is harmless and stop reacting. The plants can hold on to this knowledge for weeks, even when their living conditions, such as lighting, are changed. “That was unexpected because we were thinking about very short memories, in the range of one or two days – the average memory of insects,” says Mancuso. “To find that plants were able to memorise for two months was a surprise.” Not least because they don’t have brains.
In a plant, a single brain would be a fatal flaw because they have evolved to be lunch. “Plants use a very different strategy,” says Mancuso. “They are very good at diffusing the same function all over the body.” You can remove 90% of a plant without killing it. “You need to imagine a plant as a huge brain. Maybe not as efficient as in the case of animals, but diffused everywhere.”
One of the most controversial aspects of Mancuso’s work is the idea of plant consciousness. As we learn more about animal and plant intelligence, not to mention human intelligence, the always-contentious term consciousness has become the subject of ever more heated scientific and philosophical debate.“Let’s use another term,” Mancuso suggests. “Consciousness is a little bit tricky in both our languages. Let’s talk about awareness. Plants are perfectly aware of themselves.” A simple example is when one plant overshadows another – the shaded plant will grow faster to reach the light. But when you look into the crown of a tree, all the shoots are heavily shaded. They do not grow fast because they know that they are shaded by part of themselves. “So they have a perfect image of themselves and of the outside,” says Mancuso.
......
Far from being silent and passive, plants are social and communicative, above ground and beneath, through their roots and fungal networks.
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Plants respond to sound, too, “feeling” vibrations all over.
“Plants are extremely good at detecting specific kinds of sounds, for example at 200hz or 300hz … because they are seeking the sound of running water.” If you put a source of 200hz sound close to the roots of a plant, he says, they will follow it. There is no evidence that the human voice benefits plants, although talking to plants may soothe the humans doing it.
They are adept at detecting subtle electromagnetic fields generated by other life forms. They use chemicals and scents to warn each other of danger, deter predators and attract pollinating insects.
When corn is nibbled by caterpillars, for example, the plant emits a chemical distress signal that lures parasitic wasps to exterminate the caterpillars.

more .... https://www.theguardian.com/environ...able-cousins-more-intelligent-than-we-realise
 
Ahhh.. there it is. Penrose proposes that the collapse of a quantum wave function creates an instant of consciousness.

So science proposes that consciousness exists?

Yes, it is all designs (patterns), but patterns can be self -forming and do not need a designer.
Witness a fractal:

I don't think fractals are as complex as DNA. Science can't answer what started life. Evolution is fair enough, it is observable(micro), but it has nothing to do with the formation of DNA. How do fractals argue against design when they could be designed.

I have a lot of problems with that concept.

a) if God is enfolded in spacetime, it is not static but dynamic and changeable.
b) if God already knows the future, can it change it?
c) if God needs no memory how does it permanently store memory of things that no longer exist.
d) if God is responsible for everything, how can terrible things happen such as a supernova that wipes out an entire solar system including all living things that may inhabit all orbiting planets.
Why have a God that allows destruction of it's own creations?

a) God is outside spacetime, it had to be to create the universe from outside of the universe.
b) God can intervene anytime, just look at the flood in the bible(Genesis). If this is the God you are referring to? An example of how God works. Genesis 6:6-7. He regrets.
c) Because it knows the past, all knowing.
d) Your example is one I've not heard before, it's usually "Why do people suffer"; it's like cosmic morals. All I can say is, if the God of the bible exists, then God has reasons. No such thing as an accident.
 
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So science proposes that consciousness exists?
Yes, but is is not a neural function. It is a moment of systemic cognition. Science calls it the collapse of the wave function.
I don't think fractals are as complex as DNA.
Indeed, fractals are fundamental self-organizing repetitive patterns, with emergent exponential complexity.
Science can't answer what started life,
Yes it can and does.
Abiogenesis is the process.
Evolution is fair enough, it is observable(micro), but it has nothing to do with the formation of DNA. How do fractals argue against design when they could be designed.
DNA is a simple fractal object with inherent complex biological growth instructions by equations utilizing just 4 different relational values that form the biochemical growth blueprint of the organism.

What is DNA?

The information in DNA is stored as a code made up of four chemical bases: adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T). Human DNA consists of about 3 billion bases, and more than 99 percent of those bases are the same in all people. Jan 19, 2021
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/basics/dna/#

The-Chemical-Structures-of-DNA-RNA-Aug-2018.png

Today’s post crosses over into the realm of biochemistry, with a look at the chemical structure of DNA, and its role in creating proteins in our cells. Of course, it’s not just in humans that DNA is found – it’s present in the cells of every multicellular life form on Earth. This graphic provides an overview of its common structure across these life forms, and a brief explanation of how it allows proteins to be generated.
more ...
https://www.compoundchem.com/2015/03/24/dna/[/quote][/quote]
 
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Yes it can and does.

Can you recommend a good read?

Abiogenesis is the process.

You sound like a fundamental Christian/Muslim :)

DNA is a simple fractal object with inherent complex biological growth instructions by equations utilizing just 4 different relational values that form the biochemical growth blueprint of the organism.

What is DNA?

Information.

EDIT: (Abiogenesis) I can see "internet" articles saying basically what you're saying but it isn't even a scientific theory.
 
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Is freewill like the hostage in a bank robbery?

He wants to pick his nose but the robber (with his gun) says no.

After a bit the robber can see he is no threat and says "OK,pick"

The hostage is thrilled "I got free will after all"
 
Is freewill like the hostage in a bank robbery?

He wants to pick his nose but the robber (with his gun) says no.

After a bit the robber can see he is no threat and says "OK,pick"

The hostage is thrilled "I got free will after all"
Well, he had the free will to choose the less lethal of two consequences.
 
Please post on topic.
Can you recommend a good read?
I can recommend anything by Robert Hazen from Carnegie Institute for Science.
He is an excellent lecturer and lays out the evolutionary processes that start with purely chemical reactions to the emergence of self-duplicating polymers and the ability to seek energy for maintaining homeostasis.
The lecturer who exposed me to the fundamentals in a clear and persuasive argument.
Hazen has several in-depth lectures on Youtube.
You sound like a fundamental Christian/Muslim :)
Hell, no! Life was born in hell, not heaven.
Information.
EDIT: (Abiogenesis) I can see "internet" articles saying basically what you're saying but it isn't even a scientific theory.
That is because you are missing the axiomatic fact that cells all living organisms are born by and perform abiogenesis every second of their lives.

Living cells are composed of non-living molecules, so every time a cell divides the process creates a living object from non-living constituent parts, that is the definition of abiogenesis.

The Molecular Composition of Cells
Cells are composed of water, inorganic ions, and carbon-containing (organic) molecules. Water is the most abundant molecule in cells, accounting for 70% or more of total cell mass. Consequently, the interactions between water and the other constituents of cells are of central importance in biological chemistry.
The critical property of water in this respect is that it is a polar molecule, in which the hydrogen atoms have a slight positive charge and the oxygen has a slight negative charge (Figure 2.1). Because of their polar nature, water molecules can form hydrogen bonds with each other or with other polar molecules, as well as interacting with positively or negatively charged ions. As a result of these interactions, ions and polar molecules are readily soluble in water (hydrophilic).
In contrast, nonpolar molecules, which cannot interact with water, are poorly soluble in an aqueous environment (hydrophobic). Consequently, nonpolar molecules tend to minimize their contact with water by associating closely with each other instead. As discussed later in this chapter, such interactions of polar and nonpolar molecules with water and with each other play crucial roles in the formation of biological structures, such as cell membranes.
more ......
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9879/#

A non-living biochemical polymer.
d5c6cac8889ac2ea0d4a873bba6fbac5
RNA
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170712201054.htm#
Summary: A new method to measure the half-life of RNA molecules has now been created by researchers. Their study revealed that commonly used methods provide distorted results and that RNA molecules live an average of only two minutes, ten times shorter than previously assumed. Jul 12, 2017

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170712201054.htm#

A more complex non-living biochemical polymer.
7B4F3D12-2083-457B-A709F561FC4E696D_source.jpg
DNA
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mysterious-retron-dna-helps-scientists-edit-human-genes/

Neither of these bio-chemical polymers are living things, yet their chemical instructions produce living cells!


Lets assume that all life for all its variety, must have something in common, i.e. living cells, ok?
How and from what are cells made?

This common denominator has been named LUCA (Last Universal Common Ancestor)

Who or what is LUCA?

by Stephanie McClellan0, 3 April 2013

Is there an evolutionary starting point and a primordial organism from which all modern life descended?

Charles Darwin proposed the existence of an evolutionary starting point and a primordial organism from which all modern life descended. This started the search for a last universal common ancestor or ‘LUCA’. In the 20th century the theory gained weight after the genetic code was deciphered and found to be universal across all life on Earth.
So what sort of beast was LUCA? Several scenarios have been proposed by molecular evolutionists. LUCA was most likely a single-celled organism that lived between three and four billion years ago.
It may have used RNA both to store genetic information like DNA, and to catalyse chemical reactions like an enzyme protein. Similar to some species of archaea – ancient and very tough microbes – LUCA would have been highly resistant to extreme environments. Some scientists have even suggested that LUCA emerged close to deep sea hydrothermal vents (above).
th


212012.jpg

Still, there may not be one LUCA as such, but an indefinable evolutionary starting point for contemporary life. One person who believed this was legendary late microbiologist Carl Woese. He suggested that all life evolved through horizontal gene transfer between ancient organisms as opposed to solely vertical evolution. And so the question of where we ultimately came from may never be answered exactly, but the glimpses that science gives us will no doubt continue to inspire – as with any good family story.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/120606/who-what-luca/#

Orignally, there were probably several locations on the surface where life had roots, but there is only one location that was relatively shielded from all surface activities including sunlight . And that was deep in the protection of water in the oceans, on the ocean floor, where "black smokers" were spewing mineral rich plumes of dynamically interactive minerals, increasing the rate of polymer formation such as RNA.

Therefore, unless a better model can be presented, we must assume that "life" originated from Earth's natural chemistry and dynamic (violent) conditions .[/QUOTE]
 

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Moderator note: Write4U has been warned for posting off-topic.

Write4U's attempts to side-track this thread into yet another discussion of his pet topics are in breach of our site posting guidelines.

Due to accumulated warning points, Write4U will be taking a brief break from sciforums.
 
Oh please good gentleman, James R he is so interested in philosophical theories we are in freewill all of us. Please forgive his enthusiasm. He is an intelligent man and freewill opens embarks in a huge field.
 



We have freewill we can choose do not go to far and know you cna choose your freedom and have the power to change your destiny.
 
It is bad form to just post video after video without any attempt to address the content's relevance or even so much as include explanatory text.
It is actually listed in the site rules and, historically, moderators have infracted habitual violators.
 
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