Fixing the climate.

Quantum Quack said:
How can we make the ISS self sustaining and sufficient?
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There is no practical way. We might be able to in 50 years, but it would exact a huge toll in terms of resources, money and time. Is that the best place to spend those resources? How many tons of coal should we burn to accomplish that? How many tons of launcher should we discard?
What would be required at the station to support the existence of a crew of say 8, in a self sustaining manner.
Then apply what we learn with adjustments to the 8 billion crew members on space ship Earth.
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Again, there's no comparison. Learning how to run a Sabatier process to recycle CO2, learning how to scavenge more air from an airlock, learning how to make more efficient stationkeeping engines gives us exactly zero insight into our problems here on Earth.

I am all for research on the ISS. It will help our future space endeavors. It will not solve any environmental problems here on Earth. Indeed, if you want to "go green" with the ISS - switch to methalox engines in the resupply rockets as soon as possible. Not that that will help us learn to save our own environment, it will just pollute a bit less while we are doing unrelated research.
 
Approx 20,000,000,000,000 Watts consumed say 2500 watts per person cut that back to 2000 watts per person ( how you could fit a way to manage corporations use etc on a population approach I don't know...but the must be a lot of people using very little or virtually none of that huge number.
Folk who don't use power could sell their entitlement or part thereof to someone who wants more power...
Alex
 
billvon said:
There is no practical way. We might be able to in 50 years, but it would exact a huge toll in terms of resources, money and time. Is that the best place to spend those resources? How many tons of coal should we burn to accomplish that? How many tons of launcher should we discard?
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'tis only asking the question and applying the insights gained.
It all so demonstrates how much resource is needed to support one individual and how quickly this planet is going to be stripped bare.
billvon said:
I am all for research on the ISS. It will help our future space endeavors.
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and if you apply the data correctly it can be enormously helpful in establishing a bare minimum base line for humans regardless of where they are...

Xelasnave.1947 said:
Approx 20,000,000,000,000 Watts consumed say 2500 watts per person cut that back to 2000 watts per person ( how you could fit a way to manage corporations use etc on a population approach I don't know...but the must be a lot of people using very little or virtually none of that huge number.
Folk who don't use power could sell their entitlement or part thereof to someone who wants more power...
Alex
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yes... that's the sort of data needed and utilized in setting goals etc.
Find out what the minimalist position is, as a base line.


Example Q:
How many old growth large trees are needed to sustain one humans ability to breath comfortably on average?
 
And a similar system with birth rights set a target, you can have the right to X Children which you can sell.
I will do some sums.
Alex
 
250000 births a day I seem to remember cut that back to 200000 to get it rolling
Alex

I know it's crazy but it's one of those things that when you start to think about is so logical.

As a human we each have the right to do much air, children and consumption generally those rights should be quantified.
Alex
 
Xelasnave.1947 said:
And a similar system with birth rights set a target, you can have the right to X Children which you can sell.
I will do some sums.
Alex
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Having children could be contingent upon how much provision you make to support them... example: trees, water, food, energy etc...
Silly example:
Must plant x number of trees for every child born, support those trees etc...
 
Quantum Quack said:
Having children could be contingent upon how much provision you make to support them... example: trees, water, food, energy etc...
Silly example:
Must plant x number of trees for every child born, support those trees etc...
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t this negatively impact immigration, though?
 
Xelasnave.1947 said:
Approx 20,000,000,000,000 Watts consumed say 2500 watts per person cut that back to 2000 watts per person ( how you could fit a way to manage corporations use etc on a population approach I don't know...but the must be a lot of people using very little or virtually none of that huge number.
Folk who don't use power could sell their entitlement or part thereof to someone who wants more power...
Alex
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Speaking solely to electrical consumption, the average daily household use (excluding industry, of course) for the U.S. is over 30 kWh. For Europe, it's between 7 and 15 kWh, and Australia is around 15 kWh. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the hell a single household manages to consume 30 kWh daily. My own household consumption is between 4 and 5 kWh daily, and our only other energy source is firewood--but even if we were to use electric exclusively (and we're in zone 5a--we see a few -30 s and -40s through the winter), it still wouldn't even approach 30 kWh.

But, yeah, Americans will never "cut back" their consumption (of anything) of their own volition. Americans--70 percent of whom are overweight or obese--live to rape and pillage--or "consume," if one insists upon being polite about it.
 
parmalee said:
Speaking solely to electrical consumption, the average daily household use (excluding industry, of course) for the U.S. is over 30 kWh. For Europe, it's between 7 and 15 kWh, and Australia is around 15 kWh. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the hell a single household manages to consume 30 kWh daily. My own household consumption is between 4 and 5 kWh daily, and our only other energy source is firewood--but even if we were to use electric exclusively (and we're in zone 5a--we see a few -30 s and -40s through the winter), it still wouldn't even approach 30 kWh.

But, yeah, Americans will never "cut back" their consumption (of anything) of their own volition. Americans--70 percent of whom are overweight or obese--live to rape and pillage--or "consume," if one insists upon being polite about it.
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Probably air conditioning... reverse cycle . Always on. My guess...
 
parmalee said:
Speaking solely to electrical consumption, the average daily household use (excluding industry, of course) for the U.S. is over 30 kWh. For Europe, it's between 7 and 15 kWh, and Australia is around 15 kWh. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the hell a single household manages to consume 30 kWh daily. My own household consumption is between 4 and 5 kWh daily, and our only other energy source is firewood--but even if we were to use electric exclusively (and we're in zone 5a--we see a few -30 s and -40s through the winter), it still wouldn't even approach 30 kWh
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Yes so perhaps you can see why I concluded there must be a huge number of humans using little or no power.
Another way to look at it I suppose is to take your fair estimate and multiply that number by 7 billion.
And see how far above the energy produced (in 2018) would be if everyone was consuming what we agree here is reasonable...I have lived on only 100 amp hour 12volt ..so I only had 20 Amps to safely use... But then there was petrol...but that would come out maybe 400 watts a day .. but I have been living off grid and by myself so you can get a little ruff...hard for a family for example.
I have solar and battery for my van but need 2000 watt Genny to run an airconditioner.
And that is how it is for city folk to a degree..it's the heating of water, cooling or heating room space, and cooking takes heaps of electricity.
Main main motivations is just having power but you realise you can live on less or use twice as much.
parmalee said:
But, yeah, Americans will never "cut back" their consumption (of anything) of their own volition. Americans--70 percent of whom are overweight or obese--live to rape and pillage--or "consume," if one insists upon being polite about it.
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It's not only Americans.
It's hard to blame them as they are the expected product of our culture starting with Devine entitlement thru to being fed poor culture movies.
Hopefully things will get better.
Alex
 
There would be an enormous saving in energy if the was more solar. The way to approach solar in my view is to have folk accept that it may not take care of all their power it will reduce your consumption from the grid, you may not get much Sun but if if cuts your mains needs by only 20% that is a contribution to your grid energy requirements and at some point mean less fuel of whatever kind is needed..less mining and easing problems various fuel suppliers have with their particular product be it coal gas Uranium. If everyone could reduce consumption by 20% you are a long way there ..I know idealistic...
Now here is another..we set giant fans in orbit to somehow drive down the cold from space... Now that would work. We create our own jet stream that goes up out and back..air conditioned Earth.

We laugh but we could make that work...need numbers for desired temperature drop so I can work out how many fans.

Alex
 
I think there needs to be thrashed out some founding principles first to guide further thought and action.

For example:
Products can not be manufactured unless a full, thorough and sustainable pathway to recycling is established and licensed.
or
The responsibility for the products recycling belongs to the manufacturer/importer etc...

  • Sustainability
  • Symbiosis
  • Balance
 
Yes I don't expect letters from your energy supplier setting out steps you can take to reduce your consumption.
Introducing more efficient refrigeration and more efficient hot water cold and warm air etc is important.
Better efficiency should not mean cut back in enjoyment only in consumption...
Again solar hot water, it can really help, sure you need to heat it up with outside grid energy maybe but you will reduce your impact and not be worse off.
Solar heating in winter to reduce part of the bill...The good thing is you may also save money...mmm money.
Promote sensible changes in a non alarmist fashion with a spin that you better better and save money...and fear motivation..you do want to be capable of surviving off grid when the system brakes down...want to buy a wall...and gravity energy..cars can only travel down hill...
Alex
 
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