Health Care Bill Debate

[nietzschefan]

German Biker gang...yes that probably qualifies for an elevated threat level...

 

[hypewaders]

What the bullet actually hits:

-would be a true pity.

At least, he's representative.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

What the bullet actually hits:
would be a true pity.

At least, he's representative.

Have you seen the posters by some of the protestors where they have him looking like Batman's Joker? Its really surprising though I know I shouldn't be surprised. The opposition is looking for any way to demonize him except in this case its not warranted. There are those who say that Bush was lampooned and so why not Obama, well I think its a matter of what you lampoon him for. And in this case there is nothing more than a bill on the floor and instead of looking at the bill for its merits or weakness they attack the man.

 

[pjdude1219]

They aren't sparse. They're just mainstream, so they don't stand out as much. People who think non-whites should be subjected to discrimination are "hatemongers". People who feel the same about white people can even earn the title of "civil rights activist".

Um name one left wing hate group that is main stream?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Um name one left wing hate group that is main stream?

I'm sorry but what is a left wing hate group? I have never heard of a left wing hate group. Actually I am not even sure if I think of conservative or right wing in relationship to hate groups since hate groups seem to occupy their own nitsch.

 

[madanthonywayne]

IHS: US Publically Financed Medicine

As we discuss remaking our healthcare system in the US towards a system with more government involvement; perhaps we should examine the healthcare provided by the federal government to a group of people guaranteed federally provided healthcare by treaty. American Indians.

When it comes to health and disease in Indian country, the statistics are staggering.

American Indians have an infant death rate that is 40 percent higher than the rate for whites. They are twice as likely to die from diabetes, 60 percent more likely to have a stroke, 30 percent more likely to have high blood pressure and 20 percent more likely to have heart disease.

American Indians have disproportionately high death rates from unintentional injuries and suicide, and a high prevalence of risk factors for obesity, substance abuse, sudden infant death syndrome, teenage pregnancy, liver disease and hepatitis.

Indian health clinics often are ill-equipped to deal with such high rates of disease, and poor clinics do not have enough money to focus on preventive care. The main problem is a lack of federal money. American Indian programs are not a priority for Congress, which provided the health service with $3.6 billion this budget year.

On some reservations, the oft-quoted refrain is "don't get sick after June," when the federal dollars run out. It's a sick joke, and a sad one, because it's sometimes true, especially on the poorest reservations where residents cannot afford health insurance. Officials say they have about half of what they need to operate, and patients know they must be dying or about to lose a limb to get serious care.

One of the main problems is that many clinics must "buy" health care from larger medical facilities outside the health service because the clinics are not equipped to handle more serious medical conditions. The money that Congress provides for those contract health care services is rarely sufficient, forcing many clinics to make "life or limb" decisions that leave lower-priority patients out in the cold.

"The picture is much bigger than what the Indian Health Service can do," says Doni Wilder, an official at the agency's headquarters in Rockville, Md., and the former director of the agency's Northwestern region. "Doctors every day in our organization are making decisions about people not getting cataracts removed, gall bladders fixed."​

Follow the links to read of stories of children dying of cancer due to delays in diagnosis, congestive heart failure being treated with cough syrup, patients dying when their meds run out. To quote Tracey Castaway (one of the beneficiaries of the publically financed IHS) "everyone has a story".
http://www.reznetnews.org/article/indian-health-cares-broken-promises-35270
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2009/06/15/news/topnews/187549.txt
Again, I have to ask, where is the evidence that the US government is capable of managing healthcare?

 

[spidergoat]

The US is capable of managing anything it wants if the motivation is there.

This is interesting:

Bringing the prospect for improved health care in Indian Country closer to a reality, the Indian Healthcare Improvement Act (IHCIA) Reauthorization of 2006, H.R. 5312, a bill that would provide 21st Century health care for Native people, was introduced by Alaska Rep. Don Young, R...​

So, a Republican wants socialized medicine for Indians? Why is it good for them, but not for the rest of the country? The bill passed the house, but tied in the senate after an abortion dispute. I wonder who was behind that?

 

[Tiassa]

I would say you've got to be kidding us, but, sadly, you aren't

As we discuss remaking our healthcare system in the US towards a system with more government involvement; perhaps we should examine the healthcare provided by the federal government to a group of people guaranteed federally provided healthcare by treaty. American Indians.

Your premise is slightly askew, sir. The proposition that the United States government should be considered anything remotely resembling reliable in its attitude toward the tribes is macabre.

 

[Challenger78]

Wait. So you have no federally funded hospitals ? They have to "Buy" healthcare from Hospitals ?

 

[Tiassa]

Bill Kristol: American Socialized Health Care "First Class"

Conservative commentator, Weekly Standard editor, and New York Times columnist Bill Kristol appeared on The Daily Show last month and, amid the good-natured back and forth with host Jon Stewart, made what some might seem a shocking claim: Socialized health care in the United States is "first-class health care".

STEWART: So you believe no public option, so even though that's good enough for the military, not good enough for the people of America.

KRISTOL: Well, the military has a different health system than the rest of Americans.

STEWART: It's a public system, no?

KRISTOL: Yeah, they don't have an option, they're all in military health care.

STEWART: Why don't we go with that?

KRISTOL: I don't know. Is military health care really what you -- first of all, it's expensive. I think they deserve it, the military--

STEWART: But the American public do not.

KRISTOL: No. The American public do not deserve the same quality health care as our soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan deserve, and they need all kinds of things that the rest of us don't need.

STEWART: Well, no, they can have that level of care, but are you saying that the American public shouldn't have access to the same quality health care that we give to our better citizens?

KRISTOL: Yes. To our soldiers? Absolutely. The American public--

STEWART: Really?

KRISTOL: I think that if you become a soldier, you deserve--

[crosstalk]

KRISTOL: One of the ways we make it up to the soldiers, since they're risking their lives, we give them first-class health care. The rest of us can go out and buy insurance--

STEWART: So you said that the public--

[crosstalk]

STEWART: Get this on the record. Bill Kristol said that the government can run a "first class health care system." And a government-run health care system is better than the private health care system.

KRISTOL: I don't know if it's better.

STEWART: You just said that.

KRISTOL: I don't know if it's better.

STEWART: You said it was better! You said it's the best. It's a little more expensive...

KRISTOL: The military needs different kinds of health care...

STEWART: I just want to get this down: "The government runs the best health care" ....

(qtd. in Linkins)​

While Kristol still criticized the unknown plan for health care reform as a "very bad plan", the fact remains that he considers one of the nation's publicly-administrated health plans "first-class", thus undermining the right wing's scare tactics insisting that socialized medicine is abysmal.

Perhaps it's time to move past the cruel distractions put forth by the loudest naysayers and begin dealing with reality.
____________________

Notes:

Stewart, Jon. "Extended Interview With Bill Kristol". The Daily Show. Comedy Central, New York. July 27, 2009. IndecisionForever.com. August 20, 2009. http://www.indecisionforever.com/2009/07/28/jon-stewarts-extended-bill-kristol-interview/

Linkins, Jason. "Bill Kristol Admits Public Health Care Sometimes Better On 'Daily Show'". The Huffington Post. July 28, 2009. HuffingtonPost.com. August 20, 2009. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/28/bill-kristol-admits-publi_n_246145.html

 

[TW Scott]

There's not so much difference between intimidating people who are trying to convene and do political business, and intimidating people who are trying to vote.

This is not the first eruption of the Republican goon squads. We saw them in action during the Florida recount of 2000, for example - but the gun packing is new. The mob stuff seems to have gotten worse since they lost the election.

That is true, but there were no threats made by either gentleman carrying guns at either rally. In fact they were orderly and carrying their weapons in full compliance with the law. The one in New Hampsire had said he hadn;t really thought about the fact he had his gun with him. The man in Arizona was a democrat. In neither case was anybody threatened. If some people succumbed to hoplophobic tendencies, then that is their mental issue.

Our second amendments is just as impoertant as our first. The freedom of speech allows us to voice our discontent with out governement and the second gives us the means tomake sure the government is always listening. It has to, or the People, will pull a repeat of 1776. After all all these politicians should be working for us, which means they need to listen to us, even if they don't like what we are saying.

 

[Asguard]

i would love to point out to him that a bullet wound is a bullet wound and it doesnt MATTER what country it came from. Some of the injuries that civilans systain are WORSE than what happens in war. There were ADF personal saying they would rather be in iraq than in victoria during black sat, the bali bombings didnt exactly make a nice neat cut which could be covered in a band aid and as for car crashes or person falling into a meat grinder ect

 

[phlogistician]

Socialised healthcare rocks.

See, the problem with the naysayers argument is thus; Nobody wants to get sick. So in any system, you pay into it, hoping you won't need it. What difference does it make therefore who is the recipient of the treatment, if not you? If it is you, what's the beef?

A socialised system might generate less revenue per head, because of low wages and tax burdens on some citizens. A private system is run for profit, so doesn't put all it's cash into care. Surely these things even out. Private systems also refuse to accept people, or charge exhorbitant fees, we don't see that in socialised systems.

Also, it's good news for you Johnny foreigners when you come visit. We will fix you, for free.

Sure, people moan about waiting times in socialised medicine, but under the US system where 18% of the population have no insurance, surely a little wait is far better than no care at all.

 

[Challenger78]

Sure, people moan about waiting times in socialised medicine, but under the US system where 18% of the population have no insurance, surely a little wait is far better than no care at all.

That's what makes all this bitching and whining so damn irrational.

I mean, do the Americans Like seeing people die or something because they wouldn't do the smart thing ?

 

[joepistole]

Socialised healthcare rocks.

See, the problem with the naysayers argument is thus; Nobody wants to get sick. So in any system, you pay into it, hoping you won't need it. What difference does it make therefore who is the recipient of the treatment, if not you? If it is you, what's the beef?

A socialised system might generate less revenue per head, because of low wages and tax burdens on some citizens. A private system is run for profit, so doesn't put all it's cash into care. Surely these things even out. Private systems also refuse to accept people, or charge exhorbitant fees, we don't see that in socialised systems.

Also, it's good news for you Johnny foreigners when you come visit. We will fix you, for free.

Sure, people moan about waiting times in socialised medicine, but under the US system where 18% of the population have no insurance, surely a little wait is far better than no care at all.

A couple of things, first is that most Johnny foreigners don't pay now and they still won't pay down the road after healthcare reform. Two, the only people I hear moaning about waiting times under socialized systems are right wing whackos under the influence of healthcare lobbyists. I never hear Canadians, Brits, French, Sweds, or Germans complain about their healthcare systems or waiting times.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Your premise is slightly askew, sir. The proposition that the United States government should be considered anything remotely resembling reliable in its attitude toward the tribes is macabre.

Indeed. American Indians are, at present, the only people with a right to federally provided healthcare. And you can see what a shit job the government does in providing it. Why? I suppose because Indians are a small, politically weak minority. Clearly, congress allocates its funds according to politics, not need and not even in accordance with long standing obligations. Would you expect this practice to change if the federal government took over healthcare for us all?

 

[Cowboy]

Nope not wrong, everyone may not want insurance of that I am sure. Not everyone wants auto liability insurance either. But when you drive you take on a risk. As a living being you have a risk.

No one knows when they/we will encounter a severe medical problem an accident or disease but at some point it will happen. It is part of life, and when it happens will those people who don't want health insurance be able to pay their bill? Most will probably not be able to pay the bill. Do we then let them die? Before we send out rescue clues do we first have to verify insurance while critical seconds and minutes pass?

No the only sane way to manage the problem is to have everyone purchase healthcare insurance. So that they can be fiscally responsible and manage the risk we all incur by living, the risk of injury or catastrophic disease.

People have car insurance because it's required of us by law. Medical insurance isn't required by law and shouldn't be forced on us via socialism in an attempt to require fiscal responsibility.

 

[Cowboy]

So you are saying all politicians are National Socialists?

Almost all politicians seek to expand the size of government, particularly in economic affairs. Most probably aren't actual Nazis, but they share the Nazi's love of the nanny-state.

 

[Cowboy]

They are both obviously violent, and your repeated, unbacked denials of this plain fact establish only that you can't or won't deal honestly with the question.

You haven't established that his actions were violent. Who did he injure? Who did he attempt to injure? If he had shot someone (or attempted to do so), it probably would have been mentioned in the article cited in the original post.

Since when is breaking a law "much less than" committing an act of violence?

Huh? Please rephrase.

There's no rank-order here. The fact that he didn't break any laws that we know of has no bearing on his use of political violence.

What is "political violence"? Was he smashing the windows the local Starbucks and overturning cars like protestors have been known to do?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Um name one left wing hate group that is main stream?

Name one right wing hate group that is main stream.