Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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DaveC426913 said:
He's completely given up on the original context, where he tried to suggest things can have needs and wants that have to be satisfied. He's moved his goalposts back quite a ways.
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Oh no, I haven't. Not one inch...., you are misreading my posts. I said that the ocurrence of physical events have to satisfy certain mathematical interactive values and regulated dynamical functions.
When the "need" for an event presents, we call that need a threshold event or trigger . When there are sufficient potential values and mathematical functions present, the threshold is exceeded and a quantum event follows.
Its not complicated. It's mathematical. Functional Needs and Sufficient resources.
When ALL conditions have been satisfied, the event is mathematically permitted to proceed in the direction of greatest satisfaction. Where does the narrative fail?
 
DaveC426913 said:
They're not even wrong.

"...an argument or explanation that purports to be scientific but is based on faulty reasoning or speculative premises that can neither be proven correct nor falsified and thus cannot be discussed in a rigorous and scientific sense."
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But it can in a Alternative Theories subforum....:)

Kinda like a Bohmian "Wholeness" and the "Implicate Order"......:rolleyes:

But I also like the elegant simplicity of a quasi-intelligent mathematical order based on relative values and mathematical dynamical processing functions. In that scenario, the universe is a mathematical construct, which has been practically proven to be completely mathematical in essence. An unmotivated functional mathematical ordering system, which ultimately can be "understood" and symbolized for public consumption and commerce.

Everything in the Universe satisfies a mathematical equation between values and dynamical potentials (functions). That's why we can describe them in symbolic mathematical language, but cloak them in terms of a metaphorical imaginary mathematical narrative.

The inherent universal evolutionary mathematical potential for self-aware consciousness is already contained in the very geometry, vectors and tensors in the manifold of the Universe and its inherent dynamic mathematical potential.

In less than a century we have already succeeded in making AI thinking machines with some very interesting character traits. These robots are functionally aware by binary information coding from controlled wave distribution of their exact tasks and programmed functional responses. In their limited world, functional robots are practically autonomous in their execution of simple repetitious functional responses. They are reliably (measurably) precise and translatable (programmable) with human maths, so we can make toys.

Can that be classified as a state of some form of awareness of the environment and distribution of sensory collections and data transmissions. Where in the hierarchy of emergent quasi-intelligent orders does the self-referential mathematical processes start?

The hierarchical self-ordering potentials of patterns with universal values and functions, evolving from a disorderly state of chaos, into the direction of greater and more complex orders?
The self-formation of elements into ever more complex orders?
The self-formation of bio-chemicals into ever more complex orders?
The single celled multi-nucleic slime mold into transcendent abilities to tell time?
The 8 functionally autonomous brains + 1 Central brain Octopus into ever more remarkable feats of problem solving.?
The extraordinary evolved ability for abstract thought evolved into ever more practical artificial functional copies of Natural mathematics in all of Man's accomplishments.

They are all fruits of the (metaphorical) Tree of knowledge. And by extension the evolution of greater self-referential experiences, leading to conscious self-regulating processing of sensory information and initiate a decision, in addition to a purely reactive chemical response..https://languages.oup.com/

We are one of those probabilies to come to pass. Perhaps it was "necessary" that a form of quasi-intelligent mathematical ordering function would naturally evolve in an environment of such richness of resources and permittive of such great numbers of natural dynamic actions and the near infinite variety of mathematical patterns.
 
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I'm testing a theory myself.

I'm doing experiments to determine the minimum number of trigger words needed by a user to get the Write4WooBot to maximize its output of boilerplate buzzword salad.

This latest run sets a good record so far, Just 41 input words has triggered a response of 441 words of salad. That's a return of over 1000%.

And that gives me a good basis for the Write4WooBot Lorem Ipsum Generator.

Input just a few words - and it will spew out paragraph after paragraph of pseudoscience nonsense, perfect for placeholder text in a New Age book on how You Too Can Talk to God.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Unfolding and enfolding.
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Yes also known as "evolving".
ORIGIN OF EVOLUTION
1615–25; < Latin ēvolūtiōn- (stem of ēvolūtiō) an unrolling, opening, equivalent to ēvolūt(us) (see evolute) + -iōn- -ion
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See David Bohm. He used this profound analogy of enfolded and unfolded reality in his hypothesis of Bohmian Mechanics and the concept of the holomovement.
The holomovement brings together the holistic principle of "undivided wholeness" with the idea that everything is in a state of process or becoming (David Bohm calls it the "universal flux").
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In this interpretation of physics wholeness is not considered static, but as a dynamic interconnected process.[1] The concept is presented most fully in Wholeness and the Implicate Order, published in 1980.
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While the concept of the holomovement has been criticized as being "metaphysical", it is actually subtler, while at the same time encompassing the whole range of interconnected physical phenomena.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holomovement

p.s. in theism this process is contained in the expression "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust"
 
DaveC426913 said: ↑
He's completely given up on the original context, where he tried to suggest things can have needs and wants that have to be satisfied. He's moved his goalposts back quite a ways.
Click to expand...


Write4U said:
Oh no, I haven't. Not one inch...., you are misreading my posts. I said that the ocurrence of physical events have to satisfy certain mathematical interactive values and regulated dynamical functions.
When the "need" for an event presents, we call that need a threshold event or trigger . When there are sufficient potential values and mathematical functions present, the threshold is exceeded and a quantum event follows.
Its not complicated. It's mathematical. Functional Needs and Sufficient resources.
When ALL conditions have been satisfied, the event is mathematically permitted to proceed in the direction of greatest satisfaction. Where does the narrative fail?
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It fails because you fail to realise that all conditions are physically based .

It is the physical that is basis of mathematics .

As I have said before mathematics can not , by its self create a real physical object . Without real physical objects being present in the first place . And included in the mathematics .

The Building of Periodic Table is a prime example .

Mathematics in and of its parameters , can not create any physical thing ever .

Therefore any " event " is permitted if it is physically permitted .

Therefore Mathematics controls , no physical thing .
 
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river said:
It fails because you fail to realize that all conditions are physically based .
It is the physical that is basis of mathematics .
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It's a self-referential system. The physics select the mathematics, the mathematics order the physics.
As I have said before mathematics can not , by its self create a real physical object . Without real physical objects being present in the first place . And included in the mathematics .
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You have the priority wrong.
Physics behaves in accordance with mathematical functions. Mathematics determine how the physical interactions unfold. A mathematical universe is both permissive and restrictive of physical action.
If a physical action is not permitted by the mathematics, it will not happen. Else we get "miracles"
The Building of Periodic Table is a prime example .
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Exactly. The dynamic potentials of each atomic pattern are controlled by the mathematics of the constituent parts.
Mathematics in and of its parameters , can not create any physical thing ever .
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So? Without mathematics no physical thing can be created either. There are no "miracles". It's all controlled by the mathematics of the physical patterns.
Therefore any " event " is permitted if it is physically permitted.
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No, that's incorrect. It's the interaction of the physical "values" and the specific allowed mathematical processing function which determines the action and the mathematically ordered result.
Therefore Mathematics controls , no physical thing .
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You are missing the point. Physical properties are general descriptions, they are not functional formulas. That's why we are having this discussion time and time again. Human physical descriptive language rests on the observation of regular behaviors of Naturally occurring relative values and mathematical functions.

It is not the general physical descriptions that determine the physical interactions. It is the extant relative values and allowable mathematical functions which determine the result.

You must realize that Physics is a specific subset of Mathematics. Physics consist of mathematical patterns and their inherent mathematical potentials. The stuff of physics are an expression of a pattern of mathematical values.

What you call a physical object is in reality a mathematically arranged pattern of "values". That is the whole point of Tegmark's Mathematical Universe (as well as Bohm's ""holomovement")

The Universe is a pattern of dynamically interactive values and mathematical functions. This excellence is an emergent result of geometric dimensions of the universal manifold, such as the relationships between tensors and vectors. When the values of the physics are dense enough, they can be observed and described as physical objects. When they are physically very thinly dispersed, we cannot even describe it other than as a "cloud" or "air".

A "value" is not a number. A value is a inherent mathematical potential relative to other inherent mathematical potentials.
This is true, because humans have been able to build ALL sciences around the concept of relative values and mathematical functions.

Religion is built on physical descriptions, without addressing any mathematical aspects. That's why religion can conjure "miracles", event that are not subject to the mathematical permissions and restrictions.

Hey, look a burning bush! Must be the hand of god. That's the physical description and the cause for the emergence of gods in the human imagination.
 
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↑
It fails because you fail to realise that all conditions are physically based .
It is the physical that is basis of mathematics .
Click to expand...

It's a self-referential system. The physics select the mathematics, the mathematics order the physics.
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Disagree

Physics doesn't need to select , anything . Physics can stand alone without mathematics .

Mathematics , in and of its self , can not stand alone without the real physical object .
 
Write4U said:
You have the priority wrong.
Physics behaves in accordance with mathematical functions. Mathematics determine how the physical interactions unfold. A mathematical universe is both permissive and restrictive of physical action.
If a physical action is not permitted by the mathematics, it will not happen. Else we get "miracles"
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Aren't math just a language to understand the physics?

I mean Newton used functions but he didn't know the speed of light was a constant.
 
Beer w/Straw said:
Aren't math just a language to understand the physics?

I mean Newton used functions but he didn't know the speed of light was a constant.
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To your first statement ; absolutely .

That is brilliant Beer w/Straw .

Every number , every symbol in physical mathematics is representative of an aspect of physical things .
 
Beer w/Straw said:
Aren't math just a language to understand the physics?
I mean Newton used functions but he didn't know the speed of light was a constant.
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Human maths are a product of human observation and symbolic interpretation. But, IMO, that is looking at it backwards. Human maths are not invented, the symbolic language we use is invented, but the values and functions on which our mathematics are based on are present at time of observation, else they could not be quantified and symbolized to begin with.

Newton invented his theories from recognizing the "regularities" exhibited by various natural phenomena and that these regularities can be assigned "values", precisely because they were regular and could be quantified and qualified with symbolic language. He did not need to know that the speed of light was a constant.

But even your citation of SOL being a universal constant is a recognition of a mathematical values which applies to the speed of light. The relative value we use to quantify that value is arbitrarily selected for human convenience.

When cosmologists tell me that they are only "discovering" the existing universal mathematics of what they are observing, who am I to argue? If a cosmologist tells me that gravity is a result of an inherent mathematical ordering equation, which is pervasive throughout the universe and demonstrably a quality of space-time fabric itself, who am I to call him/her wrong?

We did not invent Universal mathematics, we translated them from direct observation or by testing.
Our conjuring of the Higgs boson was a result of a mathematical predictions, not of throwing a bunch of stuff in the LHC and hoping for the best.....o_O
 
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