Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[Baron Max]

Some examples from Pakistan's history of oppression of British colonization: Writing about the unrest among the Punjabi Muslims during the 1857 Mutiny, ...

So it's still about trying to lay the blame on the west? It seems that's all that Muslims know and care about ...rather than pick themselves up and get on with life.

Just so you know, the people of America were oppressed from the 1700s, yet were able to go on and become the world's greatest military and social society on the planet. And we didn't do it by wallowing in the blame of the British.

People all over this planet have been oppressed at one time or another, yet Muslims still wallow in blaming others while doing little or nothing to pick themselves up and get on with life.

And worse that all that ...Muslims are killing other Muslims all over the planet in suicide attacks. And even for that, Muslims blame the west??? Why?

Blame, blame, blame ..... "Johnny made me do it!" Hardly seems like a good reason to blow things up, does it? ...especially your own people!

Baron Max

 

[GeoffP]

Poverty because of colonialism. It's simple enough, when you can't afford to eat, how can you afford to send your children to school.

Actually, that's simply not so. Does the Ottoman Empire ring a bell? Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? Egypt?

 

[copernicus66]

Just so you know, the people of America were oppressed from the 1700s, yet were able to go on and become the world's greatest military and social society on the planet. And we didn't do it by wallowing in the blame of the British.

Let's not forget minorities who were oppressed while under Muslim rule:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Dhimma_in_the_modern_world

During World War I, Christian minorities (Greek, Armenian, Assyrian) were persecuted in the Ottoman Empire. Beginning as forced expulsion, the Turkish government began conducting harsher pogroms against Christian minorities such as massacres of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians as early as 1914. In 1915, Henry Morgenthau, Sr., the U.S. ambassador to the Empire, reported that 350,000 Armenians had been killed or starved. Prior to the U.S. entry in the war, the Turkish government also expelled American Christian missionaries from the country.[147] The sum of these actions resulted in the Armenian Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, the Greek genocide and the Mount Lebanon Genocide.

The predicted response is "It's all the West's fault!"

 

[Baron Max]

Let me be the first to officially state that on behalf of the world's Muslims I demand several things from the West.

1. COMPLETE NON-INTERFERENCE: ....

Would that include not allowing Muslims to study in Western universities?

And should Western nations kick Muslims out of their countries?

And no Western nations should give western food and medicines to Muslim nations?

And Muslims should not use western arms and ammunition when those Muslims begin killing other Muslims?

And should the western nations restrict any and all Muslims from the western Internet access?

And should Muslims quit using any and all cell-phone technology that was designed by western nations?

"Complete Non-Interference" would cover a lot of aspects of life that you seem to have overlooked in your overly-zealous blame of the west. Oh, but then again, isn't that typical of the way Muslim radicals react ...overly zealous?!

Baron Max

 

[copernicus66]

Would that include not allowing Muslims to study in Western universities?

And should Western nations kick Muslims out of their countries?

And no Western nations should give western food and medicines to Muslim nations?

And Muslims should not use western arms and ammunition when those Muslims begin killing other Muslims?

And should the western nations restrict any and all Muslims from the western Internet access?

And should Muslims quit using any and all cell-phone technology that was designed by western nations?

"Complete Non-Interference" would cover a lot of aspects of life that you seem to have overlooked in your overly-zealous blame of the west. Oh, but then again, isn't that typical of the way Muslim radicals react ...overly zealous?!

Baron Max

Let's not forget one Muslim nation seeking Western assistance against another belligerent Muslim nations (eg. Kuwait requesting Western 'interference' against Iraq).

 

[ElectricFetus]

So it's still about trying to lay the blame on the west? It seems that's all that Muslims know and care about ...rather than pick themselves up and get on with life.

Just so you know, the people of America were oppressed from the 1700s, yet were able to go on and become the world's greatest military and social society on the planet. And we didn't do it by wallowing in the blame of the British.

People all over this planet have been oppressed at one time or another, yet Muslims still wallow in blaming others while doing little or nothing to pick themselves up and get on with life.

And worse that all that ...Muslims are killing other Muslims all over the planet in suicide attacks. And even for that, Muslims blame the west??? Why?

Blame, blame, blame ..... "Johnny made me do it!" Hardly seems like a good reason to blow things up, does it? ...especially your own people!

Baron Max

Why I mean you don't see japan blaming America for its 3rd world economy, oh that right they have the worlds second largest economy and they were fucking nuked, twice! You don't see South Korea blaming colonialism for there 3rd world economy, oh wait they are a heavily industrial self reliant country despite having lived under oppressive colonialism only 70 years ago and having been split into two! Why is it all the Muslim countries keep whining about how colonialism fucked them up, get over it!

 

[S.A.M.]

Just compare American actions in Japan post WWII and Middle East post 1900s.

What differences do you see?

 

[(Q)]

Let me be the first to officially state that on behalf of the world's Muslims I demand several things from the West.

1. COMPLETE NON-INTERFERENCE: As of this day, all Western governments and all Western individuals, except those approved by the democratically elected governments of our sovereign countries, should leave immediately.

Should we also ask all Muslims to leave the West as well, to be fair?

No foreign forces will be tolerated in the Muslim world.

If you want to create a "Muslim World" then all Muslims will have to move to one location and everyone who is not Muslim in that location will have to move out.

African nations should be paid reparations for slavery due to the theft of millions of its free citizens by Western Atlantic powers.

The Muslim World will be paying the lions share of those reparations for it's long term and ongoing involvement with slavery.

I guarantee the above three points will bring instant peace to the Muslim World, after an interim period where democratic elections should be allowed to take place.

That will not happen considering the warring factions within the Muslim World who continuously kill each other.

 

[(Q)]

Just compare American actions in Japan post WWII and Middle East post 1900s.

What differences do you see?

Endless differences. What's your point?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Let me be the first to officially state that on behalf of the world's Muslims I demand several things from the West.

1. COMPLETE NON-INTERFERENCE: As of this day, all Western governments and all Western individuals, except those approved by the democratically elected governments of our sovereign countries, should leave immediately. Western countries should not have the right to influence the internal politics of any Muslim country. This will allow truly representative governments to take power in the Middle East.

I demand the same from Islam/Muslims, complete none interfearence in the Western World.

Eat your oil.

2. WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS: All troops and security personnel belonging to Western nations should be withdrawn immediately, if not they should be seized and escorted back to their rightful government. No foreign forces will be tolerated in the Muslim world.

I demand the same from Islam/Muslims, all Muslims should return to Islamic countries, and it if they do not, they should be seized and escorted back to their rightful Ialamic Theocracy. No Muslims will be tolerated in the Western world.

3. REPARATIONS: For all the wealth seized from our land, all the destruction of our indigenous institutions, and payment in the form of monetary sums to replace the destroyed or stolen resources and institutions of our lands. Naturally this will have to be settled through the governments representing the people, through unhindered democracy. African nations should be paid reparations for slavery due to the theft of millions of its free citizens by Western Atlantic powers.

I demand the same from Islam/Muslims, REPARATIONS: For all the wealth seized from our land, all the destruction of our indigenous institutions, and payment in the form of monetary sums to replace the destroyed or stolen resources and institutions of our lands.

African nations should be paid reparations for slavery due to the theft of millions of its free citizens by Muslims Powers and sold into to Slavery in Muslim World, and across the oceans to the rest of the world for profit.

I guarantee the above three points will bring instant peace to the Muslim World, after an interim period where democratic elections should be allowed to take place. The Organization of the Islamic Conference should be the only organization allowed to deal with the matter. It is the only way for the US occupying power to recover some dignity and perhaps even establish cordial relations with Muslims in the long-term.

:roflmao: No it wouldn't, Muslims would still be cutting each others throats over who is the Rightful Heir to the Title of Muhammad's Power.

The next fallacy of your Pax Islam, is the Quran and Hadiths:

THE ISLAMIC JIHAD and THE IMPERATIVE OF HOLY WAR

Islam cannot let the West alone, Islam cannot let the World alone, it cannot let any state outside of Islam alone, any thing not Islam is a anathema to Allah, and Islam so therefore must be converted, or conqured and destroyed.

 

[(Q)]

Are you people that clueless? Go read about some of these people. I'll give you some names Khwarezmi, Ibn Sina, Al-Jabbar, Al Biruni, Bukhari, Al Zahrawi, Ibn Battuta, Al Kindi, Al Tabari, Al Ghazali, Omar Khayyam, etc.

Although some independent research on the part of a few of those individuals, like Khwarizmi, for example, most of the work was gleaned from the translations of previous works of Archimedes, Apollonius, Diophantus, Menelaus and Ptolemy, to name a few.

The House of Wisdom was primarily used to translate the works of others and then take credit for those works. The spoils of Islamic conquest.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Just compare American actions in Japan post WWII and Middle East post 1900s.

What differences do you see?

I see America pumping billions of dollars into both why do you ask? America still pumps billions into the middle east every day for more hits of oil!

 

[S.A.M.]

I see America pumping billions of dollars into both why do you ask? America still pumps billions into the middle east every day for more hits of oil!

Into what, exactly? What did the US pump money into in Japan? What did the US pump money into the Middle East? What did they build in both places?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Q: Should we also ask all Muslims to leave the West as well, to be fair?

Come on Q I think you know very well that when he refers to 'the west' he isn't referring to Westerners! There are no foreign troops in western lands are there? No. Well its safe to assume he is talking about western troops in Muslim lands.

Diamond don't wait up for anything on that list, based on Obama's plan when the U.S withdraws troops from Iraq there will still be 50,000 troops left and 30,000 more to be moved into Afghanistan so the game continues.

 

[(Q)]

Q: Should we also ask all Muslims to leave the West as well, to be fair?

Come on Q I think you know very well that when he refers to 'the west' he isn't referring to Westerners! There are no foreign troops in western lands are there? No. Well its safe to assume he is talking about western troops in Muslim lands.

He did say "all Western individuals... should leave immediately." And if you follow DH's posts, you'd know he meant everyone, not just troops.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Into what, exactly? What did the US pump money into in Japan? What did the US pump money into the Middle East? What did they build in both places?

Military bases, business, investments, oil, stuff in general?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Checked again and you are correct, he did mention western individuals but I am not sure if he means by that. For example I know many western muslim's and an even greater amount who are 'westernized'. But without trying to guess what he is thinking I am curious as to why someone who displays a generally objective intellect would be so biased as to not see that some of the points being expressed are valid not to mention stimulated by U.S foreign policy. I don't say the West because the current agenda is an American one to suit amercian interests, other western nations either backed up or silently accepted.

When I go through some of these threads it does look as if there is a brow beating job being done on anyone who acknowledges themself as muslim. They are being asked to blame 'islam', their own religion, for the actions of a few. We would never ever ask an Israeli to acknowledge a flaw in judaism to explain their actions in Gaza anymore than we would blame christianity for the actions of nazi's and attitude towards people of color, its ridiculous dangerous even. If this is representative of attitudes between east and west or islam vs. non we are going to be living in a dangerous world for a very long time and the outcome is not necessarily in favor of the West.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Its as if most are saying 'submit! submit to the West our hisorical revisionism, our media bias, our religious bias and basic prejuiduce. Submit your hajib or burkha no matter what it represents to you because 'we' feel intimidated by it, 'we' see it as backward blah blah blah...

I am not a muslim and even I feel the antagonism. Its bloody scary and yet everyone wants to call them the aggressors

 

[(Q)]

For example I know many western muslim's and an even greater amount who are 'westernized'.

Of course, when the children of Muslim parents grow up in westernized nations, they begin to question the customs and cultures of their heritage, and often revolt in favor of those lifestyles.

I am curious as to why someone who displays a generally objective intellect would be so biased as to not see that some of the points being expressed are valid not to mention stimulated by U.S foreign policy.

US foreign policies are not the same as the conflict between the Islamic state and Westernized lifestyles. Muslim here often make that mistake as they blame the west for their own internal problems and shortcomings.

 

[GeoffP]

Into what, exactly? What did the US pump money into in Japan? What did the US pump money into the Middle East? What did they build in both places?

I think you're partially confusing the end-product here: Japan was not wracked with religious violence. They realized they'd been defeated. Iraq is a different story; I don't know if it's an Arabist thing or not, of course, but it's hard to reconstruct when there are still private armies of Shias and Sunnis running around murdering their fellow citizens and American/Allied soldiers.