Multiculturalism the known good

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I mean you want to talk about entitlements just check this out:

Illegal immigrants to get new rights in Sweden

Illegal immigrants in Sweden should in future have the right to government-funded healthcare and education, and be able to start their own companies, the government has agreed.

The move follows long negotiations between the smaller governing parties (the Centre, Liberal and Christian Democrat parties) who have long argued for more rights for undocumented migrants, and the Moderate Party, which has opposed the idea.

The Moderates have argued that giving such entitlements would legitimize people who have no right to be in Sweden.

The parties say there are still a number of questions to resolve, including the issue of who will pay for illegal immigrants' healthcare or the kind of care and education to which they will be entitled.

Social Affairs Minister and Christian Democrat leader Göran Hägglund said the changes would cost "a few hundred million kronor" per year, but added:

"Compared with the total cost of healthcare, that's nothing."

Education Minister and Liberal leader Jan Björklund said he hoped that the children of illegal immigrants would be able to start attending Swedish schools from 2012, adding that his preliminary calculations suggested that this would cost taxpayers 50-100 million kronor per academic year. He said this compared to the total cost of 100 billion kronor for running Sweden's compulsory schooling.

Centre Party leader and Industry Minister Maud Olofsson said that the deal would also allow illegal immigrants to start companies:

"We have now included in the agreement that it should be easy to come to Sweden regardless of whether you are a businessperson or an employee," she said.

The minority government will need support from at least one opposition party to pass the measures. Olofsson said she hoped the Green Party would support the moves, despite not having been involved in negotiations. A parliamentary vote is not expected until early 2012.

http://www.thelocal.se/32372/20110303/

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Around here in Europe, European academia is known for living high up in the clouds ...

Actually the woman is african-american. She married a Norwegian and worked there for a while. I believe she is on staff at a university in California at the moment.

 

[wynn]

But it is founded on Christian beliefs but so what. What beliefs would you like them to utilize? Buddhist? Islam? If we were discussing Asia people would be losing their minds if it was suggested that they should somehow move away from their traditions.

By naming those Christian foundations in the EU constitution, EU citizens would become implicitly obligated to Christianity. Surely this is no small thing.

The issue was that they wanted to specify what the EU ethics are, and couldn't come up with a formulation that would not provoke strong disagreement in some members.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

By naming those Christian foundations in the EU constitution, EU citizens would become implicitly obligated to Christianity. Surely this is no small thing.

The issue was that they wanted to specify what the EU ethics are, and couldn't come up with a formulation that would not provoke strong disagreement in some members.

They are not obligated to Christianity, most Europeans are irreligious. You do realize that this addition to the what looks likely to be defunct constitution is intended to curb the rise in Islam in Europe? Not obligate Europeans to christianity.

 

[Michael]

But isn't this the dilemma of a society that prides itself on liberty and individual freedoms? How do you teach that which a group will not allow to be taught? We cannot say that Muslims should be taught that there is no mohammed when they are likely to react with hostility, the same hostility that christians and jews would muster if they were similarly challenged. What would you do? Ban religious education and private schools? What would that make of 'liberal' ideals then? And when you eradicate the 'god' matter what makes you believe it would eradicate all other cultural markers and differentiation's? What you suggest is to force an anti-religious stance on what is an already largely secular irreligious society. In other words why is there this problem of integration and multiculturalism in a society where they are not even religious? In Norway only 32% of the population state they believe in a god!

The school the boy went to was not a religious school but a state school, it was the neighborhood that was majority muslim, black and middle-eastern with very few white norwegians, this is why he was bullied. Fines may have stopped bullying but it wouldn't have ended his isolation, you cannot force people to be inclusive nor can you force friendships, in other words he would have still been ignored and not invited to birthday parties or allowed into the homes or games of his class mates.

IMO, and it's just that, we can start the educational process now, or later. Either way, it is going to happen.

Start with teaching history. Good honest History. Many great German archeologists. Slowly add to it over time.

If we wait until later, maybe society progressively becomes more atheistic and so we're fine. If not, we might have some problems - much like we have now, only worse.

Why do today what can be put off till tomorrow hey?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

@Me-Ki-Gal

What rubbish! Scandinavians have always had community. They were tribal so everything was built around community.

Are they embracing the immigrant population into there communities our are they segregated into there little niche ares with in the community ? Probably divided by old class systems of economic advantage . Are you starting to see the prob here . Why some people might be mad as hell . Why London rioters might brake open shop keeper stores and take the goods . Probably not , but I try . I bet Stoni could tie in white Man addictions pretty good right about know. What Addictions you might ask . Monetary dominance would be my guess . Controllers of world wealth by manipulation

 

[wynn]

I mean you want to talk about entitlements just check this out:

Illegal immigrants to get new rights in Sweden

Illegal immigrants in Sweden should in future have the right to government-funded healthcare and education, and be able to start their own companies, the government has agreed.

I think a part of the problems with this is simply formal:
Issues get legislated only once there is a need for doing so.
This can create situations that are unjust.

It is actually the case in several EU countries that immigrants and minorities are better off than the natives - but that is because the status of the natives has not been so clearly specified as the status of the immigrants and minorities.

In a one-nation, one-culture country, there is not much need to legislate issues of identity, for it is a given and taken for granted.
(I mean "identity" in the broadest sense - citizenship, race, culture, socio-economic status, religion ...)

But when a minority moves into that country, the minority sticks out, seeming to have more identity than the natives.
This then calls for legislation, sometimes making the minority end up with more rights than the natives.

I think this wouldn't happen if the one-nation, one-culture country would have legislated issues of identity in advance, and in detail, even before minorities would move in.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

No not really. The caste system is thousands of years old. It is entrenched deeply into "Indian culture" - like sati and child marriage. So should we stick to it? I think not and most educated Indians will agree



I read something in Jewcy that I think is relevant here:

But Europeans are not sticking to christianity. Go to any church in Denmark and you will find empty pews with a handful of centenarians. You cannot compare traditions such as sati to what you have in Europe today. Name one christian tradition outside of xmas that marks European law and society? Its purely secular.

As far as the arab replacing jew thing you should read this by Zizek:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/07/26/3030861.htm

And this too:

http://www.lacan.com/essays/?page_id=454

Its the first article I believe you will find of the utmost interest for a variety of reasons (he makes a tie between this debate and Israel)

 

[wynn]

They are not obligated to Christianity, most Europeans are irreligious. You do realize that this addition to the what looks likely to be defunct constitution is intended to curb the rise in Islam in Europe? Not obligate Europeans to christianity.

Perhaps. Personally, I felt they are trying to obligate me to Christianity.
Christian right-wing parties are quite strong in Europe.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Are they embracing the immigrant population into there communities our are they segregated into there little niche ares with in the community ? Probably divided by old class systems of economic advantage . Are you starting to see the prob here . Why some people might be mad as hell . Why London rioters might brake open shop keeper stores and take the goods . Probably not , but I try . I bet Stoni could tie in white Man addictions pretty good right about know. What Addictions you might ask . Monetary dominance would be my guess . Controllers of world wealth by manipulation

People segregate themselves. I assure you that black or muslim upper classes who are educated are not living in ghettos with the poor. The wealthy have their own ghettos.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Perhaps. Personally, I felt they are trying to obligate me to Christianity.
Christian right-wing parties are quite strong in Europe.

They are not strong because they are christian, they are strong because they address immigration.

 

[wynn]

But Europeans are not sticking to christianity. Go to any church in Denmark and you will find empty pews with a handful of centenarians. You cannot compare traditions such as sati to what you have in Europe today. Name one christian tradition outside of xmas that marks European law and society? Its purely secular.

They were looking for a summary name for values such as kindness, generosity, tolerance - values which the EU should supposedly promulgate.
One suggestion was "humanist," another "Christian."

 

[wynn]

So what is it about multiculturalism that is naturally 'good', so good in fact that to question it turns one into a de facto racist?

The only thing I find to be "good" about multiculturalism is in the sense that it is an important advantage for an invididual to be able to maintain their own identity even when surrounded by vastly different others.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

They were looking for a summary name for values such as kindness, generosity, tolerance - values which the EU should supposedly promulgate.
One suggestion was "humanist," another "Christian."

it really doesn't have anything to do with that. Its about keeping Turkey out of the European Union. Its purely political at a time when immigration is a hot topic. Why else would Merkel address it in the fashion she did? What she had to say certainly wasn't PC.

 

[Michael]

The caste system is thousands of years old. It is entrenched deeply into "Indian culture" - like sati and child marriage. So should we stick to it? I think not and most educated Indians will agree

This is interesting.

Islam is over a thousands of years old. It is entrenched deeply into "Arab culture" - like the Bruka and child marriage. So should you stick to it? I think not and most educated Arab atheists will agree

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The only thing I find to be "good" about multiculturalism is in the sense that it is an important advantage for an invididual to be able to maintain their own identity even when surrounded by vastly different others.

And there's the rub. That's the crux of the debate.

 

[S.A.M.]

This is interesting.

Islam is over a thousands of years old. It is entrenched deeply into "Arab culture" - like the Bruka and child marriage. So should you stick to it? I think not and most educated Arab atheists will agree

Atheism is older in Arab lands than Islam [see pre-Islamic pagans] so some people might agree with your hypothesis

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

This is interesting.

Islam is over a thousands of years old. It is entrenched deeply into "Arab culture" - like the Bruka and child marriage. So should you stick to it? I think not and most educated Arab atheists will agree

I wasn't aware there were any arab atheists.

 

[S.A.M.]

I wasn't aware there were any arab atheists.

They are called mulhed from ilhad [denial of the existence of gods or God] - like every other society they represent about the same number as the fundamentalists

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

They are called mulhed from ilhad [denial of the existence of gods or God]

You see you learn something new each day. When did it become like some kind of a betrayal to be an apostate? You have muslims in the UK who have to go into hiding because they've either renounced Islam or converted. By the way make sure you take the time to read post#48. There's a fascinating article by Zizek on the subject of arabs, jews and racism in Europe.