"Perfect Love"
- Thread starter razz
- Start date
sonofbabylon
Registered Member
I was just looking over the last few posts and it's really difficult to take a stand on anything, yet I can relate to almost all of it. Lots of different emotions getting thrown around here and no real concensus on anything. I took the handle sonofbabylon because that is exactly what I am--a product of conflicting ideas, confusion everywhere, religious zealotry, scientific arrogance, ignorance and strife; and much more .
I really enjoy hearing other ideas--especially those different than my own. Just because I'm a christian doesn't mean I can't believe in evolution and the scientific method. But I also understand personally how easy it is go into judgemental mode when I make a change in my life. You start believing everybody else should too. We evolve physically, mentally and spiritually. Every seven years our bodies totally renews itself into a different person altogether-- right down to the cellular level, possibly even to the atomic level.
I believe in science. I believe in God. I don't see a conflict. I believe in perfect love even though I can't explain it nor will ever fully understand it. To explain it through science is an exercise in futility.
Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's." He also said "I have not come to save the righteous but the sinner". Just 20 years or so after His death, the churches were in disarray because of the desire of men to take the high ground and dictate to others their views of how everything should be. He was a Master Scientist--every lesson He taught was from nature. He was a Master Avatar in that He took no credit for Himself--He did nothing except everything He received from God and told us that we would do well if we did the same.
I eagerly anticipate people tearing down my posts. It gives me a great chuckle. If I can't laugh at myself and admit to wrong in word or deed, I can't be a fully-rounded person. It's not the truth or error of people or situations that gets my attention. It's the ironies that I love. I'll have my hands full trying to explain that one! I am at your mercy.
I really enjoy hearing other ideas--especially those different than my own. Just because I'm a christian doesn't mean I can't believe in evolution and the scientific method. But I also understand personally how easy it is go into judgemental mode when I make a change in my life. You start believing everybody else should too. We evolve physically, mentally and spiritually. Every seven years our bodies totally renews itself into a different person altogether-- right down to the cellular level, possibly even to the atomic level.
I believe in science. I believe in God. I don't see a conflict. I believe in perfect love even though I can't explain it nor will ever fully understand it. To explain it through science is an exercise in futility.
Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's." He also said "I have not come to save the righteous but the sinner". Just 20 years or so after His death, the churches were in disarray because of the desire of men to take the high ground and dictate to others their views of how everything should be. He was a Master Scientist--every lesson He taught was from nature. He was a Master Avatar in that He took no credit for Himself--He did nothing except everything He received from God and told us that we would do well if we did the same.
I eagerly anticipate people tearing down my posts. It gives me a great chuckle. If I can't laugh at myself and admit to wrong in word or deed, I can't be a fully-rounded person. It's not the truth or error of people or situations that gets my attention. It's the ironies that I love. I'll have my hands full trying to explain that one! I am at your mercy.
I'm an atheist, but I suspect there is some sort of spirit stuff going on. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Maybe we have spirits or something. Can't say yet, so I can't rule it out. Maybe it's just some energy stuff going on that we will some day be able to measure and such. No idea.
But the point is, I think there is more to it than mere chemical reactions. More to love, and more to humans in general. I think we are more than meat and bone and stinky chemical juices. And no, I don't have a single shred of proof. Now do I have any idea what that "something more" might be really. No, I don't think it is anything to do with any religions. I suspect it's just another facet of the natural physical universe that we have yet to quantify.
But the point is, I think there is more to it than mere chemical reactions. More to love, and more to humans in general. I think we are more than meat and bone and stinky chemical juices. And no, I don't have a single shred of proof. Now do I have any idea what that "something more" might be really. No, I don't think it is anything to do with any religions. I suspect it's just another facet of the natural physical universe that we have yet to quantify.
Tyler,
I remember answering all of them...
Nope...
Yes I did...
YOU (Tyler) shown me desrespect. I keep saying and only because you don't want to see it, you don't want to believe in what I say eventhough it has arguments and proofs. Pretty childish...
Yes...
Happy to see that...
Tyler, sorry if you can't understand my point...
Love,
Nelson
I remember answering all of them...
Nope...
Yes I did...
YOU (Tyler) shown me desrespect. I keep saying and only because you don't want to see it, you don't want to believe in what I say eventhough it has arguments and proofs. Pretty childish...
Yes...
Happy to see that...
Tyler, sorry if you can't understand my point...
Love,
Nelson
Xev,
Not ONLY. You can't explain Love only by chemical reactions...
Cris is just the champion on coldness!!
Tyler is not cold at all (now I saw it by his last post...)
Continue to discuss that is childish...
Extremely...
If you coincider only this rational part as you are doing, the irrational part is completly lost. And Perfect Love can't be comprehended rationaly, then, it's completly worthless try to discuss it unless you have a religious language or in the nearest science, pscychology.
Hope you understood now...
Love,
Nelson
Not ONLY. You can't explain Love only by chemical reactions...
Cris is just the champion on coldness!!
Tyler is not cold at all (now I saw it by his last post...
)Continue to discuss that is childish...
Extremely...
If you coincider only this rational part as you are doing, the irrational part is completly lost. And Perfect Love can't be comprehended rationaly, then, it's completly worthless try to discuss it unless you have a religious language or in the nearest science, pscychology.
Hope you understood now...
Love,
Nelson
sonofbabylon,
hehehehe...
...HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Love,
Nelson
hehehehe...
...HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Love,
Nelson
Continuing...
Yup!...
Yup...
And I'm not in a different track...
http://www.sciforums.com/t6468/s/thread.html
Yeah... that's what He wants... He wants us to do the same...
Love,
Nelson
Yup!...
Yup...
And I'm not in a different track...
http://www.sciforums.com/t6468/s/thread.html
Yeah... that's what He wants... He wants us to do the same...
Love,
Nelson
Adam,
Glad to see you are open-minded!!
Love,
Nelson
Glad to see you are open-minded!!
Love,
Nelson
Truthseeker. Redeem yourself or accept that I will forever see you as a lier and hypocrite.
Question 1: Where anatomically is love from then?
Question 2: What evidence do you have to support this?
Question 3: If something is not anatomical, how can you have evidence of it? (see Adam's post. At least he can admitt his belief in a 'spirit' or something else is purely based on his feelings and has no factual basing)
Question 4: Are you actually dumb enough to think that reasoning is impossible without words?
Question 5: Do you have any evidence to go against all the science we know about how body chemicals and brain activity work?
Question 6: 'If it's based on psychological theory, it's a scientific proof' - do you realize how dumb you sound?
Question 7: Do you have proof of 'essense'?
Seeing as all you'll say is 'I already proved it!', I decided to look into that. As I, unlike you, enjoy having evidence to support my claims.
So, let's take a walk through memory lane and see truthseekers "proof":
'The bible is in each of us. The truth is within, not without.'
- For starters, you'll get no where basing your claims on religion with Tyler. I don't believe in religion. For second, if the truth is within, that truth is personal to each individual and inside their brain, not their 'heart' which as I said, is nothing more than an organ to pump blood.
'no Tyler, you don't understand the concept....Love IS God!'
- Maybe we should stop right here and turn this into a religious debate. In which case I have this to say. I can respect someone's religious beliefs as long as they don't try and force their views on me. The minute someone says religious is absolute fact, I am forced by my own competitive nature to ask them what proof they have of this. There is no proof to support any one religion. No hard evidence. So, consequentially, there is no evidence that 'love is god'. If, like I said, your belief of an 'essense' is just another word for 'soul', get lost. You won't prove a thing here because you have no evidence of a soul.
'love from the mind is imperfect'
- Why, because it doesn't rely on another being? I'm an individual, and proud to be it. I know what the chemical causes of love are and I could care less, because I know that no matter what love comes from it's still love, and an amazing experience. You basically just told me that because I'm not christian my love isn't perfect.
Welcome to the board osama.
'your essense is you without your experiences'
- And I'm trying to tell you, that the chemical make up in your brain IS STILL WHAT DETERMINS YOUR IMMEDIATE TRAITS AT BIRTH. This is what we know. This is science. You are choosing to call fact fiction and your beliefs fact. Without evidence. That is the single worst way to debate on earth. Cris quite fully explained the chemical reactions inside our brain that create the emotion we call love.
'every essense must be simple, therefore it is from without your mind'
- Guh? I don't understand that conclusion one bit.
Every sandwhich must be made with ballony. Therefore kleenex was invented in 1959.
That's about the level of intelligence you're displaying here.
'psychologically, our personality lies deep outside our experiences.'
- First of all, your personality now is a result of past experiences. Second of all, your personality at birth is stil la result of your brain. This is science fact. I don't know how many times you need to hear this
'I have already explained everything using Jungian psychology! Therefore I am right!'
- For starters, anything based on theories is just that, another theory. Not fact. Second of all, you didn't use psychology to prove anything. I've been searching and searching and can't find it anywhere. Closest you've come is in saying that because our experiences affect our personality today there must have been a personality before those experiences. And as much as we say; 'Yes truthseeker you are correct, but that first personality is a result of your brain' - you say, 'no, I am right, you are wrong'.
'If it's based in psychology, it's a scientific fact'
- You're an idiot.
Then there's a page or so of you saying 'I already proved everything'.
So there ya go, a brief time line, with rebutals, of truthseekers 'proof'. Brilliant, no?
Question 1: Where anatomically is love from then?
Question 2: What evidence do you have to support this?
Question 3: If something is not anatomical, how can you have evidence of it? (see Adam's post. At least he can admitt his belief in a 'spirit' or something else is purely based on his feelings and has no factual basing)
Question 4: Are you actually dumb enough to think that reasoning is impossible without words?
Question 5: Do you have any evidence to go against all the science we know about how body chemicals and brain activity work?
Question 6: 'If it's based on psychological theory, it's a scientific proof' - do you realize how dumb you sound?
Question 7: Do you have proof of 'essense'?
Seeing as all you'll say is 'I already proved it!', I decided to look into that. As I, unlike you, enjoy having evidence to support my claims.
So, let's take a walk through memory lane and see truthseekers "proof":
'The bible is in each of us. The truth is within, not without.'
- For starters, you'll get no where basing your claims on religion with Tyler. I don't believe in religion. For second, if the truth is within, that truth is personal to each individual and inside their brain, not their 'heart' which as I said, is nothing more than an organ to pump blood.
'no Tyler, you don't understand the concept....Love IS God!'
- Maybe we should stop right here and turn this into a religious debate. In which case I have this to say. I can respect someone's religious beliefs as long as they don't try and force their views on me. The minute someone says religious is absolute fact, I am forced by my own competitive nature to ask them what proof they have of this. There is no proof to support any one religion. No hard evidence. So, consequentially, there is no evidence that 'love is god'. If, like I said, your belief of an 'essense' is just another word for 'soul', get lost. You won't prove a thing here because you have no evidence of a soul.
'love from the mind is imperfect'
- Why, because it doesn't rely on another being? I'm an individual, and proud to be it. I know what the chemical causes of love are and I could care less, because I know that no matter what love comes from it's still love, and an amazing experience. You basically just told me that because I'm not christian my love isn't perfect.
Welcome to the board osama.
'your essense is you without your experiences'
- And I'm trying to tell you, that the chemical make up in your brain IS STILL WHAT DETERMINS YOUR IMMEDIATE TRAITS AT BIRTH. This is what we know. This is science. You are choosing to call fact fiction and your beliefs fact. Without evidence. That is the single worst way to debate on earth. Cris quite fully explained the chemical reactions inside our brain that create the emotion we call love.
'every essense must be simple, therefore it is from without your mind'
- Guh? I don't understand that conclusion one bit.
Every sandwhich must be made with ballony. Therefore kleenex was invented in 1959.
That's about the level of intelligence you're displaying here.
'psychologically, our personality lies deep outside our experiences.'
- First of all, your personality now is a result of past experiences. Second of all, your personality at birth is stil la result of your brain. This is science fact. I don't know how many times you need to hear this
'I have already explained everything using Jungian psychology! Therefore I am right!'
- For starters, anything based on theories is just that, another theory. Not fact. Second of all, you didn't use psychology to prove anything. I've been searching and searching and can't find it anywhere. Closest you've come is in saying that because our experiences affect our personality today there must have been a personality before those experiences. And as much as we say; 'Yes truthseeker you are correct, but that first personality is a result of your brain' - you say, 'no, I am right, you are wrong'.
'If it's based in psychology, it's a scientific fact'
- You're an idiot.
Then there's a page or so of you saying 'I already proved everything'.
So there ya go, a brief time line, with rebutals, of truthseekers 'proof'. Brilliant, no?
*sigh*
None of any of this will ever make sense. One one hand, if I want to believe there too be mystical qualities in the nature of love I have to accept to some degree notions of an unproven God, or an unseen Soul. On the other, is this terribly disconcerning scientific approach that treats conciousness like a puppet. A state produced and maintained by a mass network of neurological activity. Sometimes when reading into neuroscience I wonder if we really have any free-will at all, if the actions of serial killers and terrorists were inevitably probable from the date of birth... The thing that troubles me most, is that while there is clear evidence to support the latter veiw it really only answers the questions by smothering it with labels. Instead of the mind being somehow abstract from the physical world and able to interact with the body without the use of a brain it is actually 'what' the brain does. But this makes no sense, how can a grouping of chemical medly's, neurological interactions 'be' aware? Subjectivity is the most incredible thing and yet logic would suggest that it doesn't exist. It can't be directly measured afterall can it? I feel somewhat shortchanged by the fact that I am not REALLY in control of my own control. It leaves me hopless. While I question the facts for what they really mean I am still deeply bothered by they're implications. I try to shut off my emotions as much as possible because I don't believe in them. I don't believe in love, it's just a method of getting a sophisticated evolved species enthusiastic about procreation (or as it relates to kinship). It makes sense, thats the scary part.
None of any of this will ever make sense. One one hand, if I want to believe there too be mystical qualities in the nature of love I have to accept to some degree notions of an unproven God, or an unseen Soul. On the other, is this terribly disconcerning scientific approach that treats conciousness like a puppet. A state produced and maintained by a mass network of neurological activity. Sometimes when reading into neuroscience I wonder if we really have any free-will at all, if the actions of serial killers and terrorists were inevitably probable from the date of birth... The thing that troubles me most, is that while there is clear evidence to support the latter veiw it really only answers the questions by smothering it with labels. Instead of the mind being somehow abstract from the physical world and able to interact with the body without the use of a brain it is actually 'what' the brain does. But this makes no sense, how can a grouping of chemical medly's, neurological interactions 'be' aware? Subjectivity is the most incredible thing and yet logic would suggest that it doesn't exist. It can't be directly measured afterall can it? I feel somewhat shortchanged by the fact that I am not REALLY in control of my own control. It leaves me hopless. While I question the facts for what they really mean I am still deeply bothered by they're implications. I try to shut off my emotions as much as possible because I don't believe in them. I don't believe in love, it's just a method of getting a sophisticated evolved species enthusiastic about procreation (or as it relates to kinship). It makes sense, thats the scary part.
*sigh*
None of any of this will ever make sense. On one hand, if I want to believe there too be mystical qualities in the nature of love I have to accept to some degree notions of an unproven God, or an unseen Soul. On the other, is this terribly disconcerting scientific approach that treats consciousness like a puppet. A state produced and maintained by a mass network of neurological activity. Sometimes when reading into neuroscience I wonder if we really have any free will at all, if the actions of serial killers and terrorists were inevitably probable from the date of birth... The thing that troubles me most is that while there is clear evidence to support the latter view it really only answers the questions by smothering it with labels. Instead of the mind being somehow abstract from the physical world and able to interact with the body without the use of a brain it is actually 'what' the brain does. But this makes no sense, how can a grouping of chemical medley’s, neurological interactions 'be' aware? Subjectivity is the most incredible thing and yet logic would suggest that it doesn't exist. It can't be directly measured after all can it? I feel somewhat shortchanged by the fact that I am not REALLY in control of my own control. It leaves me hopeless. While I question the facts for what they really mean I am still deeply bothered by they're implications. I try to shut off my emotions as much as possible because I don't believe in them. I don't believe in love, it's just a method of getting a sophisticated evolved species enthusiastic about procreation (or as it relates to kinship). It makes sense, that’s the scary part.
None of any of this will ever make sense. On one hand, if I want to believe there too be mystical qualities in the nature of love I have to accept to some degree notions of an unproven God, or an unseen Soul. On the other, is this terribly disconcerting scientific approach that treats consciousness like a puppet. A state produced and maintained by a mass network of neurological activity. Sometimes when reading into neuroscience I wonder if we really have any free will at all, if the actions of serial killers and terrorists were inevitably probable from the date of birth... The thing that troubles me most is that while there is clear evidence to support the latter view it really only answers the questions by smothering it with labels. Instead of the mind being somehow abstract from the physical world and able to interact with the body without the use of a brain it is actually 'what' the brain does. But this makes no sense, how can a grouping of chemical medley’s, neurological interactions 'be' aware? Subjectivity is the most incredible thing and yet logic would suggest that it doesn't exist. It can't be directly measured after all can it? I feel somewhat shortchanged by the fact that I am not REALLY in control of my own control. It leaves me hopeless. While I question the facts for what they really mean I am still deeply bothered by they're implications. I try to shut off my emotions as much as possible because I don't believe in them. I don't believe in love, it's just a method of getting a sophisticated evolved species enthusiastic about procreation (or as it relates to kinship). It makes sense, that’s the scary part.
sonofbabylon
Registered Member
Truthseeker,
Your use of my statement about scientific arrogance was kind of a cruel way to get your point across. There was no implication there that scientific arrogance was in display here. I also included religious zealotry but I didn't imply that towards you either.
I see no problem with the fact that we are chemicals, hormones and such. We are. Without them we couldn't even find the door you're looking at, let alone communicate with the God that is part of our subjective reality.
During the 60's I took a drug called mescaline. During that experience I saw something that could be called racial memory and experienced the phenoma of jumbled up senses(hearing color, seeing music in the form of notes, tasting sound, etc.) Some people experience this every day and would feel lost without that extra perception. This could have changed my perception about reality, but I accepted it for what it was--stimulated chemicals in my brain producing otherworldly results. I am a better person for it today, but I would never suggest others do it because it is dangerous. If you are suggesting that our personality comes through the void via racial memory, that's a study for science which is being done, even if some of it falls under the label paranormal. I believe in the supernatural, but I believe it to be super-natural. Nature has a set of laws--both organic and inorganic. God has a set of laws. We do well to know the difference. As far as it is possible, be at peace with all people.
Your use of my statement about scientific arrogance was kind of a cruel way to get your point across. There was no implication there that scientific arrogance was in display here. I also included religious zealotry but I didn't imply that towards you either.
I see no problem with the fact that we are chemicals, hormones and such. We are. Without them we couldn't even find the door you're looking at, let alone communicate with the God that is part of our subjective reality.
During the 60's I took a drug called mescaline. During that experience I saw something that could be called racial memory and experienced the phenoma of jumbled up senses(hearing color, seeing music in the form of notes, tasting sound, etc.) Some people experience this every day and would feel lost without that extra perception. This could have changed my perception about reality, but I accepted it for what it was--stimulated chemicals in my brain producing otherworldly results. I am a better person for it today, but I would never suggest others do it because it is dangerous. If you are suggesting that our personality comes through the void via racial memory, that's a study for science which is being done, even if some of it falls under the label paranormal. I believe in the supernatural, but I believe it to be super-natural. Nature has a set of laws--both organic and inorganic. God has a set of laws. We do well to know the difference. As far as it is possible, be at peace with all people.
sonofbabylon,
You understood me wrong. I was talking generously. Sorry if it was ambiguious.
Love,
Nelson
You understood me wrong. I was talking generously. Sorry if it was ambiguious.
Love,
Nelson
Thank you for proving the level of disrespect you have shown me continuosly.
If the belief in a Christian God that you hold is true, and you end up in heaven, I will be happier knowing I ended up in hell than in a heaven that rewards you.
Fathoms: What's so wrong with that? The true beauty is in first learning what you stated, studying it, realizing it is true, and then forgetting it because it doesn't matter. Like I said to Cris about love; you can accept all the cold and emotionless truths about it and then forget them, because they don't matter when you're in love. Just like all those cold facts you stated shouldn't matter while you're alive. They should in no way hinder enjoyment of life.
If the belief in a Christian God that you hold is true, and you end up in heaven, I will be happier knowing I ended up in hell than in a heaven that rewards you.
Fathoms: What's so wrong with that? The true beauty is in first learning what you stated, studying it, realizing it is true, and then forgetting it because it doesn't matter. Like I said to Cris about love; you can accept all the cold and emotionless truths about it and then forget them, because they don't matter when you're in love. Just like all those cold facts you stated shouldn't matter while you're alive. They should in no way hinder enjoyment of life.
Since when was the truth cold and emotionless?
Oh well, looks like the topic is dead. Hope to see you around other topics, Tyler.
Ignore the sudden onslaught of pseudoscience into the science part of the board....or debunk. Your choice, but please stick around.
It annoys me too.
Oh well, looks like the topic is dead. Hope to see you around other topics, Tyler.
Ignore the sudden onslaught of pseudoscience into the science part of the board....or debunk. Your choice, but please stick around.
It annoys me too.
As the way science describes... yes, it is...
I told about this site to one of my friends...
Perhaps she willl be here soon...
Then she will help me...
hahaha...
HAHAHAHA!!
*freakly*
Love,
Nelson
Truthseeker you have just proven to me how weak an individual you are. By saying that you let the scientific explination of things make emotions cold, you have shown that you let things take you over.
Nelson; I try to take pride in myself after most debates I do whether I won or loss. In our debate, I take pride in having not started a long string of obsenities at you in your total lack of respect to me and Xev.
Nelson; I try to take pride in myself after most debates I do whether I won or loss. In our debate, I take pride in having not started a long string of obsenities at you in your total lack of respect to me and Xev.
What!?!?!? :bugeye:
I don't let them make me cold! I control pretty much them. They make YOU be cold, as I'm seeing... I don't believe that Love comes from the mind for example. A cold and imperfect thing. Isn't this thread about Perfect Love? So how a Perfect Love can come from an imperfect thing such as a brain? Besides that, I'm shouting Love all over the forums. And then, you come here and call me cold!?!?!?! :bugeye:
Nahhh....!
Perfect Love is not chemical...
There IS something beyond, and I believe is a sort of Energy moving in another dimension.
Perfect Love is Spiritual.
YOU have total disrespect to me because it is YOU that prefers not to listen what I have to say only because it's not what you are used to think.
And I take no pride on this debate as you didn't learn nothing from that. Perhaps... NOW you did...
But I rather not discuss anymore with you.
Good Luck,
Nelson