Record cold and snow in Brazil

[iceaura]

Mankind will have to adapt too

Such as by discontinuing the mass combustion of fossil fuels as quickly as possible, and obtaining energy from the better (and cheaper) sources ready to hand.

One advantage of adapting on purpose and under control like that, gaining advantages and saving money and living better as we go, is that it would avoid some of the major disasters that would be nature's standard way of adaptation (too late to avoid all of them, but we should take what we can get).

In Abrahamic terms: God helps those who help themselves, the world is good as created. In Confucian terms: do not do unto others what you would not have done unto yourself. In Taoist or Buddhist terms: That art thou, love and care for the world. In Hindu and animist terms: willful destruction accumulates bad karma, care for the world and it will care for you. In humanist terms: deliberate cruelty is insane, greed is self destructive.

In everybody's terms: the world is not yours to ruin.

 

[Benson]

Yeah, the dinosaurs did really well with that. That's why there are so many of them around today.

Right?

No, a rock hit them, nothing to do with Dinosaur Made Climate Change.

 

[Benson]

Such as by discontinuing the mass combustion of fossil fuels as quickly as possible, and obtaining energy from the better (and cheaper) sources ready to hand.

One advantage of adapting on purpose and under control like that, gaining advantages and saving money and living better as we go, is that it would avoid some of the major disasters that would be nature's standard way of adaptation (too late to avoid all of them, but we should take what we can get).

In Abrahamic terms: God helps those who help themselves, the world is good as created. In Confucian terms: do not do unto others what you would not have done unto yourself. In Taoist or Buddhist terms: That art thou, love and care for the world. In Hindu and animist terms: willful destruction accumulates bad karma, care for the world and it will care for you. In humanist terms: deliberate cruelty is insane, greed is self destructive.

In everybody's terms: the world is not yours to ruin.

I'm sure you made great use of fossil fuels and/or products derived from fossil fuels.

Even welding gives off climate change gases. So if you think you can go carbon free or feel you're in a lofty position to dictate how amazing you are and how dreadful everyone is, I think you need to get a grip and sort yourself out because you are deluded, big style.

 

[billvon]

No, a rock hit them, nothing to do with Dinosaur Made Climate Change.

OK you don't understand what happened to the dinosaurs then.

Don't you think you would be more credible if you got the basic facts right?

Even welding gives off climate change gases.

Of course. Most industrial processes do. The goal is not to stop all emissions of greenhouse gases. The goal is to get emissions down to the point where the natural processes of the earth (photosynthesis, weathering) can handle them.

 

[Benson]

Of course. Most industrial processes do. The goal is not to stop all emissions of greenhouse gases. The goal is to get emissions down to the point where the natural processes of the earth (photosynthesis, weathering) can handle them.

Which will never happen. Concrete to create hydro power damns belch out co2. The list goes on and on. The earth will never "handle" the extra co2.

You're holding overly-simplified beliefs and you hold them with excessive confidence.

 

[billvon]

Which will never happen.

We've heard things like that for centuries.

Some of my favorites:

1876: “This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” William Orton, President of Western Union.
1889: “Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever.” Thomas Edison.
1899: “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” Attributed to Charles H. Duell, head of the US patent office.
1903: “The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty - a fad.” President of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company.
1921: “The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular?” Associates of David Sarnoff.
1926: “While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility.” Lee DeForest,
1932: “There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.” Albert Einstein.
1936: “A rocket will never be able to leave the Earth’s atmosphere.” New York Times.
1946: “Television won’t be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.” Darryl Zanuck, film producer, co-founder of 20th Century Fox.
1961: “There is practically no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television or radio service inside the United States.” T.A.M. Craven, FCC commissioner.
1977: “There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home.” Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corp.
1981: “Cellular phones will absolutely not replace local wire systems.” Marty Cooper, inventor.
1989: “We will never make a 32-bit operating system.” Bill Gates, co-founder and chairman of Microsoft.
1992: “The idea of a personal communicator in every pocket is a pipe dream driven by greed.” Andy Grove, CEO of Intel.
1995: “I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” — Robert Metcalfe, founder of 3Com.

Concrete to create hydro power damns belch out co2.

https://news.mit.edu/2019/carbon-dioxide-emissions-free-cement-0916

You're holding overly-simplified beliefs and you hold them with excessive confidence.

I believe in people, that they will (with enough support) do the right thing. That's already happening.

In Norway, 85% of new car sales are EV's. Even in the US, which has become resistant to new technologies, 2% of the cars sold now are EV's - and that is climbing rapidly. In California, which typically leads the nation on this, 8% of new car sales are plug-in.

Solar is expanding like crazy, as is wind. The problem is no longer how to get enough solar or wind energy - the problem is what to do with all the power it produces in the middle of the day.

Coal plants are closing left and right in the US and Europe, and being replaced by gas plants (cleaner) and renewables (much cleaner.)

You can deny those things all you like, and predict nothing will ever work. Just stay out of the way of the people who are making it work.

 

[iceaura]

So if you think you can go carbon free or feel you're in a lofty position to dictate how amazing you are and how dreadful everyone is, I think you need to get a grip and sort yourself out because you are deluded, big style.

But I don't, obviously.
So you'll have to launch your stereotypical wingnut personal attacks from some other idiotic presumption. Try the pages of them posted by the other members of your Tribe here, for inspiration.

Which will never happen. Concrete to create hydro power damns belch out co2. The list goes on and on. The earth will never "handle" the extra co2.

Nonsense. It already is handling a lot of the extra CO2, and could handle even more with a little help. Get the human release rate down to the level the sustainable sinks are already handling and we could turn our attention to mitigating or adapting to the disasters we have already waited too long to prevent.
Failing that, just slowing things down a little would save us a lot of money and hardship. There is no reason whatsoever for continuing the current human release rate of CO2, let alone the current acceleration of it - it's mostly just inefficient fossil fuel combustion anyway, and we should be cutting that by 2/3 on ordinary economic and public health grounds, never mind AGW. There are many reasons we don't want to become a sort of First World Paraguay or Brazil, which making climate change refugees out of 8 - 12 % of the population would risk.

It takes hundreds of millions of dollars worth of advertising every year to keep US citizens financing their current level of CO2 release - and then there's the medical bills, dealing with the inconveniences, living in the debris, subsidizing the industries involved, etc. So that might be a reasonable place to start - similar to the restrictions on advertising booze or tobacco (we still subsidize them, but the principle is clear - no?).

 

[Benson]

We've heard things like that for centuries.

Some of my favorites:

1876: “This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” William Orton, President of Western Union.
1889: “Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever.” Thomas Edison.
1899: “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” Attributed to Charles H. Duell, head of the US patent office.
1903: “The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty - a fad.” President of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company.
1921: “The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular?” Associates of David Sarnoff.
1926: “While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility.” Lee DeForest,
1932: “There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.” Albert Einstein.
1936: “A rocket will never be able to leave the Earth’s atmosphere.” New York Times.
1946: “Television won’t be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.” Darryl Zanuck, film producer, co-founder of 20th Century Fox.
1961: “There is practically no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television or radio service inside the United States.” T.A.M. Craven, FCC commissioner.
1977: “There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home.” Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corp.
1981: “Cellular phones will absolutely not replace local wire systems.” Marty Cooper, inventor.
1989: “We will never make a 32-bit operating system.” Bill Gates, co-founder and chairman of Microsoft.
1992: “The idea of a personal communicator in every pocket is a pipe dream driven by greed.” Andy Grove, CEO of Intel.
1995: “I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” — Robert Metcalfe, founder of 3Com.

https://news.mit.edu/2019/carbon-dioxide-emissions-free-cement-0916

I believe in people, that they will (with enough support) do the right thing. That's already happening.

In Norway, 85% of new car sales are EV's. Even in the US, which has become resistant to new technologies, 2% of the cars sold now are EV's - and that is climbing rapidly. In California, which typically leads the nation on this, 8% of new car sales are plug-in.

Solar is expanding like crazy, as is wind. The problem is no longer how to get enough solar or wind energy - the problem is what to do with all the power it produces in the middle of the day.

Coal plants are closing left and right in the US and Europe, and being replaced by gas plants (cleaner) and renewables (much cleaner.)

You can deny those things all you like, and predict nothing will ever work. Just stay out of the way of the people who are making it work.

The UK booted up a coal plant recently.

Thank goodness that things are getting warmer, saving me a fortune in heating. Into September and it was 30c today in the UK. Not having to put logs on the fire due to the heat is helping my carbon footprint, so you'll be happy.

 

[Benson]

But I don't, obviously.
So you'll have to launch your stereotypical wingnut personal attacks from some other idiotic presumption. Try the pages of them posted by the other members of your Tribe here, for inspiration.
Nonsense. It already is handling a lot of the extra CO2, and could handle even more with a little help. Get the human release rate down to the level the sustainable sinks are already handling and we could turn our attention to mitigating or adapting to the disasters we have already waited too long to prevent.
Failing that, just slowing things down a little would save us a lot of money and hardship. There is no reason whatsoever for continuing the current human release rate of CO2, let alone the current acceleration of it - it's mostly just inefficient fossil fuel combustion anyway, and we should be cutting that by 2/3 on ordinary economic and public health grounds, never mind AGW. There are many reasons we don't want to become a sort of First World Paraguay or Brazil, which making climate change refugees out of 8 - 12 % of the population would risk.

It takes hundreds of millions of dollars worth of advertising every year to keep US citizens financing their current level of CO2 release - and then there's the medical bills, dealing with the inconveniences, living in the debris, subsidizing the industries involved, etc. So that might be a reasonable place to start - similar to the restrictions on advertising booze or tobacco (we still subsidize them, but the principle is clear - no?).

I aim my replies at idiots.

 

[Benson]

Just think, warmer climate, less heating bills, lower co2 output. Win win situation in my book. I don't have to buy as many logs.

 

[sideshowbob]

Just think, warmer climate, less heating bills

More cooling bills. Have you thought this through at all?

 

[billvon]

The UK booted up a coal plant recently.

Yep. There are always going to be people who are backwards. There are still people using slave labor, too. And I bet they boast about how it saves them money!

Thank goodness that things are getting warmer, saving me a fortune in heating.

Although the floodings, deaths and diseases are not going to be so much fun. These people, for example, may not thank anyone,

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...eaths-set-to-soar-as-uk-summers-become-hotter

I aim my replies at idiots.

Who are apparently the only sort you are able to communicate with.

 

[foghorn]

CO2 is what maintains water vapor in the atmosphere - the greenhouse effects of water vapor are side effects, feedback effects, of CO2 warming.

Probably the extra warming from increased water vapor has been and will be a greater change than the extra from the increased CO2 alone. It's at least equivalent - most sources I run into put it at 1 to 1 in current circumstances (a one degree boost or drop from CO2 causing a one degree boost or drop from H2O).

The point is that all the warming from water vapor is a consequence of the CO2 concentration, and varies according to that concentration. If you clean all the water vapor from the air, the CO2 will restore it and its greenhouse effects within a few weeks - maybe even days. The planet's surface temperature will hardly be affected even in the short run, and not at all in the longer term. If you clean all the CO2 from the air, the water vapor will rain and freeze out within a couple of months - the planet's surface temperature will drop below freezing, and remain there until the CO2 has been replenished somehow.

CO2 controls the greenhouse gas warming of the surface of this planet, and has for hundreds of millions of years at least. AGW is caused by the CO2 boost. Its only apparent potential rival would be a "methane bomb" - a sudden large boost in methane that continues boosting for a long time, longer than several lifespans of methane in the air (covering the short lifespan of methane in the air) - and even that will probably be a side effect of the CO2 boost. https://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/CarbonCycle/page5.php

Rainfall anywhere near the summit of Greenland was not measured at all. The weather stations in that region did not even have rain gauges set up.

Both you and billvon have taught me something today. I can kind of agree with both of you in a way.

As carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases heat up the planet, more water evaporates into the atmosphere, which in turn raises the temperature further. However, a hypothetical villain would not be able to exacerbate climate change by trying to pump more water vapor into the atmosphere, says Smerdon. “It would all rain out because temperature determines how much moisture can actually be held by the atmosphere.”

Similarly, it makes no sense to try to remove water vapor from the atmosphere, because natural, temperature-driven evaporation from plants and bodies of water would immediately replace it. To reduce water vapor in the atmosphere, we must lower global temperatures by reducing other greenhouse gases.

Water is indeed a greenhouse gas. It absorbs and re-emits infrared radiation, and thus makes the planet warmer. However, Smerdon says the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere is a consequence of warming rather than a driving force, because warmer air holds more water.

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2021/02/25/carbon-dioxide-cause-global-warming/

 

[Benson]

More cooling bills. Have you thought this through at all?

Yes, I don't have air con

 

[sideshowbob]

Yes, I don't have air con

So are you going to single-handedly stop global warming?

 

[Benson]

Yep. There are always going to be people who are backwards. There are still people using slave labor, too. And I bet they boast about how it saves them money!

Although the floodings, deaths and diseases are not going to be so much fun. These people, for example, may not thank anyone,

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...eaths-set-to-soar-as-uk-summers-become-hotter

Who are apparently the only sort you are able to communicate with.

Coal powered plants are not backwards, just those that believe all the silly graphs. Modern day slavery exists, rather than derailing, set up a thread on the subject.

Flooding, deaths, diseases etc.. have been going on since the dawn of man. Again, there are idiots that believe those from the last handful of decades are responsible for the full history of mankind.

And yes, I'm replying to idiots.

The climate idiots suffer from the replication crisis, many scientists can't replicate their findings and peer review never try the experiments etc.. to confirm the scientific paper. Then the climate idiots regurgitate these as fact, but they're just copying and pasting crap. Apparently, some 150 years of weather recording completes the picture from when the earth was formed. It's like recording your heart beat for 15 mins and then claim that data is representative of your heart in your lifetime.

Nevermind, only the foolish are panicking.

 

[Benson]

So are you going to single-handedly stop global warming?

Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs was just a film. The weather will continue to weather, whether you feel you can control the weather or not. If you want to change your lifestyle so you feel honourable to Meatballs, knock your pan in mate.

 

[sideshowbob]

Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs was just a film. The weather will continue to weather, whether you feel you can control the weather or not. If you want to change your lifestyle so you feel honourable to Meatballs, knock your pan in mate.

So, no response?

You implied that global warming is a good thing because of lower heating bills. It's becoming clear that you haven't thought that through.

 

[Benson]

So, no response?

You implied that global warming is a good thing because of lower heating bills. It's becoming clear that you haven't thought that through.

Global warming and global cooling has been going on for billions of years. Global warming and global cooling will continue for billions of years. If crustaceans, monkeys, man, mosquitoes etc.. do things that speed or slow what the planet is going to do, then the planet will do what it wants to do.

So if you want to avoid concrete, air con, burning logs, welding, ICE vehicles etc .. that contribute to co2 output, then knock your pan in. Don't bank on me, I'll just continue to soldier on while the climate alarmists and extinctionists piss their pants and glue themselves to railings, roads and windows.

We are still in an ice age, the tail end. There's still ice on the planet. The South pole has been a temperate forest in the past, and it will do so in the future. If it happens 10 years, 50 years or 100 years sooner, only the alarmists and extinctionists think it's a fucking big deal.

If you feel i've not thought anything through, you need to shove your bullshit up your arse.

 

[billvon]

Coal powered plants are not backwards

They are dirty and inefficient, and they produce a lot of CO2. They are backwards.

Modern day slavery exists

And I bet you think that slavery is progressive and efficient, too. After all, labor for super cheap! (if you ignore the downsides)

Flooding, deaths, diseases etc.. have been going on since the dawn of man.

Yes, they have. They are just happening more often now due to AGW.

Again, there are idiots that believe those from the last handful of decades are responsible for the full history of mankind.

Uh - no. You are making things up again. Did you get that from FOX News or something?

The climate idiots suffer from the replication crisis, many scientists can't replicate their findings

You are having trouble understanding that the climate is warming? Go talk to people in Portland or Seattle.

and peer review never try the experiments etc.. to confirm the scientific paper. Then the climate idiots regurgitate these as fact

You don't know what you are talking about, do you. You are just reading denier propaganda and parroting it here. Doesn't really work on a science board.

The basic science is pretty simple, and consists of:

1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas that traps heat and causes bodies within that CO2 to become warmer. Fact. You can do the experiment to prove this in a high school science lab.
2) We are emitting gigatons of CO2 and significantly raising the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere. Fact. This requires nothing more than math and direct observation of CO2 levels.
3) The climate is warming. Fact, supported by actual temperature measurements.
4) As the climate warms, the atmosphere evaporates more water from the ocean. More water in the air = stronger rainfall events. Simple meteorology.
5) As the oceans warm, they expand. Simple physics. And thus the sea level rises. Simple observation.

Which of these do you not understand? Don't go look up the latest meme on FOX News, think for yourself. Which of those are you having trouble with?