The MM experiment is wrong!

[Dicart]

My request to you is that you give me the name of a physicist who can claim to understand relativity. In fact, if he or she would be willing to enter the debate and talk to you and me in a decent manner.(I fear that there is no such physicist.)

I am not a physicist but i think "i understand" relativity.
By understanding i mean : Be able to give an explaination of the physical phenomenom underliying the relativity formulated by mathematic.

Per example : Why can we not simply add the speed of one objet with the other (0.8C and 0.8C per example) when they collide like we do with other non relativistic objects ?
If you ask some physicists nobody will give you some reason (this is what mathematic says they tell you...)
But the reason i suppose is : Because there is an expansion occuring at light speed of "the space" (or ether) around every particle (atoms etc)

Per example : Why has the speed of light (in vaccum) the value we know ?
Nobody knows.
But the reason i suppose is : Because there is an expansion occuring at light speed of "the space" (or ether). Therefore there are many photons trying to exit the atoms (per example) but only the photons that match the exact expansion rate survive long enought to be detected. Photons are some kind of solitons (they do not loose energy while "surfing" on the expansion wave if they have initialy the right speed).

Now, i agree with your attempt to restore the reality of the ether because if you dont do this you will never be able to do space travel.

Per example, in this topic some have discussed the fact if the relativistic mass is something we should talk about.
Sure! Saying that the kinetic energy replace the relativistic mass is totaly wrong. Kinetic energy remain but the mass within the kinetic energy grown up.
A slightly difference.... because this mean that if you eject your LOCAL mass when you approach light speed , you eject THE RELATIVISTIC MASS and therefore have more power to advance (therefore counteract the energy needed to accelerate when you reach light speed value).
Mass is relativ...yes., and so the flow of time, but localy, mass or time remain exactly the same as everywhere (this is the foundation of relativity : Universality (not like newtons universal laws that were not universal).

 

[origin]

I am not a physicist but i think "i understand" relativity.

The rest of your post after the above statement indicates you do not understand relativity.

 

[Dicart]

The rest of your post after the above statement indicates you do not understand relativity.

Wow ! Impressing how fast you can understand this !
So you could summarize here your knowledge, for "us" poor minded beings, what relativity consist of ?!!!!

Please.
Be kind with "us", non scientist guys.

 

[Dicart]

The problem with special relativity is that it doesent even apply to real world.
Why ?
Because "in the ether" (or the void or the vacuum or in the mathematical void space), when it comes to reality, there are some crap (molecules,, particles etc) in it.
Therfore if you rely on it to do space travel around light speed... you are burned by those crap in the void (yeah... this crap is not aware that movement is like nothing).
So yes, ther is some crap, THE BACKGROUND, into some ether (this is a molecular or photonic theory INTO THE VACUUM), and the SR only apply to the ether (the theory is very clever, i dont say mathemeticians are dumb)

"But i am not a particle surfing in the void !!!"
Those were the last words of the captain of the light speed ship trying to break the light speed barrier...

 

[origin]

So you could summarize here your knowledge, for "us" poor minded beings, what relativity consist of ?!!!!

No thanks, I don't want to spends hours writing. You can easily look for free online video college courses that will teach Special Relativity. Even courses that have very little math.

 

[origin]

The problem with special relativity is that it doesent even apply to real world.

Every time you use GPS Special Relativity (and General Relativity) are being used to calculate your position. So it does apply to the 'real world'.

 

[Dicart]

Every time you use GPS Special Relativity (and General Relativity) are being used to calculate your position. So it does apply to the 'real world'.

Mass is relativ...yes., and so the flow of time, but localy, mass or time remain exactly the same as everywhere (this is the foundation of relativity : Universality (not like newtons universal laws that were not universal).

(this is a molecular or photonic theory INTO THE VACUUM) and the SR only apply to the ether

You dont even understand the few words i use...

 

[origin]

You dont even understand the few words i use...

I certainly don't understand the point of that post.

 

[Dicart]

I certainly don't understand the point of that post.

So i repeat.
SR is not clearly false.
It is only aplicable to the particle and "ether-related" phenomenon.
Here the question is : Is there some ether or should we take the SR point of view saying that we can discard this question (ether has no effect at all WITHIN the SR theory domain or perhaps there is no ether at all, what means the same when we tak about SR but not the same when we talk about physic in a more general mean).
The MM experience tried to figure the point : Is there some effect we should take in account within the SR domain but NOT is there some ether or not in a more generaly mean.
The confusion comes from this subtil difference :
1. Ether exist or not but SR dont care (so we use a "mathematical ether" (yes this description is very well suited))
2. Ether exist and MM did not invalidate this possibility.

 

[origin]

So i repeat.
SR is not clearly false.

OK.

It is only aplicable to the particle and "ether-related" phenomenon.

I wouldn't call GPS particle related. SR has nothing to do with the ether.

Here the question is : Is there some ether or should we take the SR point of view saying that we can discard this question (ether has no effect at all WITHIN the SR theory domain or perhaps there is no ether at all, what means the same when we tak about SR but not the same when we talk about physic in a more general mean).

Yes the ether can be discarded.

The MM experience tried to figure the point : Is there some effect we should take in account within the SR domain but NOT is there some ether or not in a more generaly mean.

The MM experiment had nothing to do with relativity since that theory did not yet exist when the experiment was run. The MM experiment was trying to detect the earths movement through the ether and there was no movement detected.

The confusion comes from this subtil difference :
1. Ether exist or not but SR dont care (so we use a "mathematical ether" (yes this description is very well suited))
2. Ether exist and MM did not invalidate this possibility.

There is no confusion, experiments indicate there is no ether.

 

[Dicart]

I wouldn't call GPS particle related. SR has nothing to do with the ether.

You are wrong.
SR has only to do with ether.
GPS "uses" (i will not say "predict"because there is no real calculation but more some "taking in account" that there is some effect) the fact that there is some time dilatation depending on gravity potential.
Why is there a time dilatation ?
Because the distants positions are connected using ether...
If you consider all "the crap" around ether, and it is what SR never do, there is no evidence the crap is involved in the SR theory.

 

[origin]

You are wrong. SR has only to do with ether.

Show me some evidence to support your position. Just making a statement with no evidence to support it is useless.

GPS "uses" (i will not say "predict"because there is no real calculation but more some "taking in account" that there is some effect) the fact that there is some time dilatation depending on gravity potential.

This is incorrect, as I stated before SR and GR must be included in the calculation for global position.

Why is there a time dilatation ?

It is due to the fact that speed of light is 'c' in every inertial frame.

Because the distants positions are connected using ether...

That makes no sense at all.

If you consider all "the crap" around ether

I do.

 

[Dicart]

Show me some evidence to support your position. Just making a statement with no evidence to support it is useless.

Show me some evidence to support your position.
There is none.
Too bad.

This is incorrect, as I stated before SR and GR must be included in the calculation for global position.

No. There is some time dilatation occuring.
Did anyone the calculation according to SR to correct the clock speed ?
No.
They (the enginier) only did some corection so as all will function normaly (no SR calculation here)

It is due to the fact that speed of light is 'c' in every inertial frame.

NO.
C is constant into "the void" (the ether)

 

[origin]

Show me some evidence to support your position.
There is none.
Too bad.

You are wrong. The theory Special Relativity and all of the experiment that have supported relativity is my evidence. However it is not my job to support the mainstream position, it is your job to bring evidence for you position. You are the one who is challenging the current physics so it is up to you to bring evidence that disputes the mainstream view. That is how science works.

Did anyone the calculation according to SR to correct the clock speed ?
No.

Of course they did!! If they didn't GPS wouldn't work. Have you done any research on this or do you just guess and hope you are right?

 

[billvon]

Did anyone the calculation according to SR to correct the clock speed ?

Yes, they did.

They (the enginier) only did some corection so as all will function normaly (no SR calculation here)

If they just did as you say, then GPS would not be very accurate. Their clock's speed changes due to changes in the satellite orbits (they are not 100% circular) and travel over mascons - so an adjustment that is valid at 12 noon will not be valid at 12:15. Fortunately, scientists can calculate this and correct for the error before it happens.

 

[Dicart]

GPS "uses" (i will not say "predict"because there is no real calculation but more some "taking in account" that there is some effect) the fact that there is some time dilatation depending on gravity potential.

This is incorrect, as I stated before SR and GR must be included in the calculation for global position.

At the time the military engineers have designed the GPS they dident care about any SR.
So there was no need of SR to build GPS. They would have created the GPS with or without any clue of SR.
But some other engineer stated that perhaps there would be some time dilatation (gravitation and speed effetcs).
Therefore, to avoid loss of money, they ADDED some simple circuit that could ONLY (not "calculing" in real time) do some nanoseconds of delay they have PREVIOUSLY predicted, using an ESTIMATION (estimation is not calculing...), according to SR, yes.
They launched the GPS and they could observe that there is some delay, therefore switching to the "SR solution" seemed to be necessary (but the exact value dident exactly match the SR calculation, so i suppose they have adjust it).
So imagine now they would not have any clue of SR : They would have launch GPS without correction (like they did at first...) and then they would have investigate why they have some 300km error in the location the system give. What would they have do ? Add somme empiric delay without knowing anything about time dilatation...
And this is exactly what they also (actually, because now we want some more precise location system) do with some of the other phenomenon who produce also "delay in the travel of light", caused by the stratosphere and the troposphere.

Why is there a time dilatation ?

It is due to the fact that speed of light is 'c' in every inertial frame.

I dont understant why you can not understand that what you say is not a physical reason but only a mathematical reason.

You can do some analogy to undersdand :
Why, when i add 1 shilling with 1 shilling i got 2 shilling ?
The mathematical reason : Because of the + operator.
The physical reason : Because there is a phenomenon called "counting", used by humans that consist of discarding the particularity of each individual object using conceptualisation, so 2 shillings are considered conceptualy identical (they have some of their properties that are identical) altougth they are not physicaly the same, and this is what permit "the counting".

So, again.
What is the phenomenon that is responsible of the time dilatation ?

 

[origin]

At the time the military engineers have designed the GPS they dident care about any SR.
So there was no need of SR to build GPS. They would have created the GPS with or without any clue of SR.
But some other engineer stated that perhaps there would be some time dilatation (gravitation and speed effetcs).
Therefore, to avoid loss of money, they ADDED some simple circuit that could ONLY (not "calculing" in real time) do some nanoseconds of delay they have PREVIOUSLY predicted, using an ESTIMATION (estimation is not calculing...), according to SR, yes.
They launched the GPS and they could observe that there is some delay, therefore switching to the "SR solution" seemed to be necessary (but the exact value dident exactly match the SR calculation, so i suppose they have adjust it).
So imagine now they would not have any clue of SR : They would have launch GPS without correction (like they did at first...) and then they would have investigate why they have some 300km error in the location the system give. What would they have do ? Add somme empiric delay without knowing anything about time dilatation...
And this is exactly what they also (actually, because now we want some more precise location system) do with some of the other phenomenon who produce also "delay in the travel of light", caused by the stratosphere and the troposphere.

That is a fantasy, you should have began the paragraph with "once upon a time".

Here is the real story if you would care to read it: https://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/pogge.1/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

So, again.
What is the phenomenon that is responsible of the time dilatation ?

Relativity. It is due to the fact that all inertial frame measure the speed of light at 'c'.

 

[Dicart]

That is a fantasy, you should have began the paragraph with "once upon a time".

Here is the real story if you would care to read it: https://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/pogge.1/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

This is not even a story....

It is the "as usual" description on the GPS but NOT a story.
The real story is in my previous spost.
The reality : SR is not necessary to create a GPS but it is of some help.

Relativity. It is due to the fact that all inertial frame measure the speed of light at 'c'.

Are you a parrot ?

 

[Dicart]

Relativity. It is due to the fact that all inertial frame measure the speed of light at 'c'.

So let us at least correct your sentence.
Relativity IS NOT a concern about light.
The theory says : There is a speed limit. Thats all.
The fact that this speed limit is assimilated to the speed of light is only due to the fact that this is the fastest speed we know.

Now.
Do you think ALL phenomenon are related to light ?
And where can this "light" theory apply ? (because you know the speed of light isnt always C, it can be lower)
In "the vaccum" (i prefer saying "the ether"), where the light can propagate at speed C.
But now we have a problem : Vacuum isn't like in the mathematical ether of SR, something without anything. It is in reality a Dirac sea ! QFT followed.

 

[origin]

The reality : SR is not necessary to create a GPS but it is of some help.

If relativity is not used it will not work. I would say that more than 'some help'.

Are you a parrot ?

If you ask the same question, do you expect a different answer? Are you sloth?