The Muslim Ban Has Begun!

what new terrorist attacks from all the refugees they let in? Or the neverending protests against violence on women by refugees? What are they showing exactly?

You conveniently forget that the latest few terror attacks have been committed against refugees and/or perceived outsiders by fanatical nationals... Such as the mosque attack in Canada.

How do you explain the likes of that fuckhead that shot up a black church?
 
what new terrorist attacks from all the refugees they let in? Or the neverending protests against violence on women by refugees? What are they showing exactly?

you'll find out.... the USA has been slated as the greatest threat to the EU since it formed by one of their top execs ( can't recall the name... still waiting for a video file...)
 
You conveniently forget that the latest few terror attacks have been committed against refugees and/or perceived outsiders by fanatical nationals... Such as the mosque attack in Canada.

How do you explain the likes of that fuckhead that shot up a black church?

That individual has been served justice and law has prevailed.

Canada...is not Europe...

List of terror attacks in Europe:
http://time.com/4607481/europe-terrorism-timeline-berlin-paris-nice-brussels/
 
and Trumps ban on Muslims is only going to make it worse... hence the EU's response tonight

While I do agree it is somewhat excessive, I simply do not possess all of the security intelligence that Mr. President has to make that judgement. Perhaps it was indeed a necessary action to safeguard the citizens of USA from any further attacks.
 
The problems associated with this Trumps insane Muslim ban just get worse and worse. It is so wrong that it isn't even wrong thus insane.
the extent and depth of it's ramifications are only starting to be revealed as people start to understand that it is not a dream and is in fact a reality.
I will write this out because I need to clear my head.

Lets start with the Geneva conventions signed in 1957 and a party to a protocol signed 1967.
The USA by International law is obliged to honor it's commitments that it voluntarily entered in to during those years post ww2.
What Trump has done with his executive order is not only dishonor those commitments to a post WW2 world he has spat on them.

The chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel made a call to clearly state those historic and momentous commitments entered into were binding with no opt out clause. As no formal complaint mechanism exists as there has never been an issue before the USA is in breach of International law in so many ways, with out any recourse available to the international community.

Trump failed to immediately rescind his ban order and offer his apologies for his obvious ignorance and Angela Merkel has nothing to take back to EU other than the USA is now Rogue.

It highlights the presumption that a person who is fit for office is actually running the office. In this case Trump is far from fit for office and places the worlds nations in a terrible position.

Thus the constitution that put this nut job in office is not worthy of being defended.

Trump with one insane impulsive act has undone all that the world and the USA has gained in improved international relationships since the end of ww2...

If you can read at year 10 level have a go at this
A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners, dummies and newly elected world leaders

It is now up to the people of the world to determine if that undoing will amount to anything beyond sending an insane President to a Psychiatric hospital...
Right now there is no Nuclear proliferation treaty.. shit I could build a bomb in my back yard. Certainly Iran can and no doubt will as will every other tin pot republic.
Terrorists including white supremacists like Bannon just got the gift they always wanted.... WMA's by the shit load.
 
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I'm not defending Donald Trump. I'm just saying this is fairly predictable and it's not illegal for him to do.

He makes the policy and they are supposed to either carry it out or resign.
An AG is supposed to deliver their legally expert opinion on the legal status of policy, and act according to that opinion in the performance of their duties. That's what "carrying out the policy" involves, in their case. That's their job.

Because of that, most Presidents have their AG vet such policy directives in advance, in private. It's normally embarrassing to issue a directive and have the AG declare it illegal or unethical in public.
He can't really have an AG who won't follow his instructions.
He can't have one who will follow illegal or unethical instructions. (I don't mean it's impossible - bribery, mutual corruption, partners in bad doings, are always possible. It's just that such behavior violates their oath of office and terms of employment).
The only reason he had one like that was that his new AG hasn't been confirmed yet.
Not the only reason. The other reason was he didn't vet his policy directive with his AG.
If his new AG won't follow his instructions due to ethics or morality then it will have more of an impact on his administration.
True. But if they will, in cases like this one, it will have more of an impact on us.
 
If the president says, "enforce this policy" (the president does not set out legislation, which by definition comes from the legislature) and the attorney perceives that attempting to enforce this policy in the courts requires expressing false or otherwise disqualifying statements thus creating legal exposure for both federal attorney and boss (except the boss can hide behind "executive privilege" despite having deliberately disregarded the safeguards) do you believe that attorney, for being part of the Department of Justice, should be obliged to make false or otherwise disqualifying statements in court?

That is to say: Sarkus, do you support obliging government lawyers to lie?
No, of course not, and nothing I said should lead you to think I would.

That the attorney perceives such things would from the outset be just her opinion (perhaps, or possibly likely, shared by others) until such time as the courts have ruled on it. If she felt that her opinion prevents her from doing her job then she could have had a discussion with the President setting out the issues as she saw them, and expressing that she felt unable to carry out his wishes. The correct course of action in the event of the President telling her to "do it anyway" would have been to resign.

What she did was to enforce her opinion upon the rest of her staff, contrary to the wishes of her boss. In my book that is grounds for dismissal. There may be others that think they can attempt to enforce the order without lying. That she felt she couldn't do so clearly put her in a difficult position. And so she should simply have resigned.
Heck, she was in a no-win situation given what she felt about the order. But I don't disagree with her subsequent dismissal.

I don't know enough about the legislation to know if I agree with her actual position on it or not, but I don't agree with the action she then took.

Imagine if the CEO of a company wanted you, as a senior manager, to enforce an activity that you felt was illegal but was not yet proven to be so in the courts. What would you do? Personally I would try to speak to the CEO and raise my concerns so that the potential illegalities could be addressed. In the failure of that then I would resign for being unable to reconcile my conscience with what I've been told to do. What I wouldn't do is tell those under me not to defend the order, as it is still just my opinion and not yet proven in the courts to be illegal. Perhaps it actually isn't illegal. Perhaps the CEO was entitled to have the activity enforced. All I have done by instructing those under me not to defend the order is to enforce my own opinion, not the will of the CEO.

I feel sorry for her in having been put in such a position where her belief was contrary to her task. But there are ways of doing things, and her way I consider grounds for dismissal, whether I agree with her underlying view or not (as to the legality of the order). As I see it her only decent course, unfortunately, was to resign.

But let's get this clear: unless I'm mistaken, she wasn't sacked for the view she held but for enforcing her view on her staff when it was an unproven view and ran contrary to that of her boss.
 
But let's get this clear: unless I'm mistaken, she wasn't sacked for the view she held but for enforcing her view on her staff when it was an unproven view and ran contrary to that of her boss.
Does the fact that she was his legal specialist with delegated responsibility to protect the President from inadvertently acting illegally make any difference.

Given the fact that she was not consulted prior to the release and the state of ensuing chaos, would her actions be considered by any court as being quite reasonable.
Context:
In a large corporation the managing director relies on his specialists to carry out their roles to the best of their ability not for him but ultimately for the shareholders.
The MD has to trust his specialist as he has no expertise in their field.

Did Trump bother to inquire of his specialist why she did what she did before sacking her?
 
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That the attorney perceives such things would from the outset be just her opinion (perhaps, or possibly likely, shared by others) until such time as the courts have ruled on it. If she felt that her opinion prevents her from doing her job then she could have had a discussion with the President setting out the issues as she saw them, and expressing that she felt unable to carry out his wishes. The correct course of action in the event of the President telling her to "do it anyway" would have been to resign.
That situation is the one that obtains when the AG is called upon to vet a proposed directive. In this case, the directive was issued without consulting the AG, in public. That means her official opinion, which governs her agency's actions, had to be delivered in public.

What she did was to enforce her opinion upon the rest of her staff, contrary to the wishes of her boss.
Of course That was her job. She's their boss. Enforcing her opinion of such matters is exactly what she is supposed to be doing, and took an oath to do. She's the AG of the country, not Trump's private lawyer.
In my book that is grounds for dismissal.
Sure, if it bothers the President enough, he can dismiss his AG for something like that. He can also dismiss his AG for not covering their mouth when they cough. But unless Trump was maneuvering to get rid of that AG quickly, for some reason, what the dismissal involves is a failure to admit a mistake. He should never have signed an executive order like that without vetting it with his AG, unless he was setting up the AG for dismissal.
 
Given reports that Trump was unfamiliar with even the basics of the Geneva conventions is it up to the AG to teach Trump about Geneva commitments after he had already made his order?
 
She didn't resign because she as an individual, holds the people of the USA as being more important than Trump.
Political Seppuku!
 
Does the fact that she was his legal specialist with delegated responsibility to protect the President from inadvertently acting illegally make any difference.
No, not really. She acted improperly so paid the price. As argued, the proper thing in her position, given her opinion, was not to carry out his orders but to resign.
Given the fact that she was not consulted prior to the release and the state of ensuing chaos, would her actions be considered by any court as being quite reasonable.
That is for courts to decide if and when any such suit is presented before them.
If she had resigned then I would think she could have a case that she was effectively pushed out for not having been consulted. But she was, as I understand it, sacked for enforcing her opinion on her staff. The issues are separate.
Context:
In a large corporation the managing director relies on his specialists to carry out their roles to the best of their ability not for him but ultimately for the shareholders.
The MD has to trust his specialist as he has no expertise in their field.

Did Trump bother to inquire of his specialist why she did what she did before sacking her?
I don't disagree. But the manner in which you protest at being unfairly treated, or overlooked, can in itself be cause for dismissal irrespective of whether your underlying point has merit or not.

Personally I think it was ridiculous for someone in his administration not to strongly suggest that the AG give the order a thorough look-over before delivering it, and for someone as so business-savvy as Trump claims to be to not do something like that by default. But he didn't. And that is a separate issue, in my view.
 
That situation is the one that obtains when the AG is called upon to vet a proposed directive. In this case, the directive was issued without consulting the AG, in public. That means her official opinion, which governs her agency's actions, had to be delivered in public.
In my view it should have been delivered as the reason for her resignation. But she effectively forced her view upon her staff, and her view is not one that has yet been demonstrated correct in court. Whether her view is right or wrong is not the issue here but how she handled the situation she was in. She was between a rock and a hard place, admittedly, but in my view she chose unwisely.
Of course That was her job. She's their boss. Enforcing her opinion of such matters is exactly what she is supposed to be doing, and took an oath to do. She's the AG of the country, not Trump's private lawyer.
But her opinion is not law, is not necessarily correct, and in this case was contrary to the opinion of her boss. If she can't defend the opinion of her boss then she should resign, not enforce her own opinion.
Ideally, as I think we are all in agreement, she should have been consulted prior to the order being issued and any difference of opinion resolved. But it wasn't.
Sure, if it bothers the President enough, he can dismiss his AG for something like that. He can also dismiss his AG for not covering their mouth when they cough. But unless Trump was maneuvering to get rid of that AG quickly, for some reason, what the dismissal involves is a failure to admit a mistake. He should never have signed an executive order like that without vetting it with his AG, unless he was setting up the AG for dismissal.
I don't know Trump's Machiavellian abilities well enough to know his motives, whether he was just shooting from the hip or had removal of the AG in mind. But since the AG serves at the pleasure of the President and can be removed any time, I'm not sure he needed to do anything but remove her. Even following the more appropriate course of discussing the order before it was issued would have shown that she was not behind it and thus enabled him to seek a replacement with some publicised justification. So I rather see this mess as an indication of his lack of forethought... act first, think later.

But we all agree with what should have occurred before issuing the order, just differ with regard views of her subsequent actions and whether these are reasonable grounds for dismissal. So please let's steer clear of equivocating our views on the rights and wrongs of the subsequent action by the AG with our views on the rights and wrongs of what Trump did or didn't do in issuing the order.

Also, given that the AG does serve at the President's pleasure, given that he can remove them from office at any time, I'm not sure what exactly would constitute unfair dismissal.
 
Here is a list of 5 infringements against the Constitution put together by a group of Law professors specializing in the constitution:


1. Equal Protection.
This order raises discrimination concerns surrounding the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, singling out individuals for their religion and nationality by focusing on seven predominantly Muslim countries. Additionally, our immigration laws already forbid such discrimination in issuing visas.

2. First Amendment. The order raises religious freedom concerns, including issues surrounding the ban on government establishment of religion. The law suspends admission of all refugees but asks the secretary of homeland security to “prioritize refugee claims” by members of a “minority religion” in a given country. This effectively means explicitly deprioritizing Muslim refugees in majority-Muslim countries. As Mark Joseph Stern has explained, the apparent preference for Christians of the order itself as well as Trump’s long history of comments supporting a “Muslim ban” will not help the law’s success in the courts.

3. Due Process. The procedures used to enforce the order, if they can be called procedures, are arbitrary. Past Supreme Court cases have permitted individuals to be excluded at the border but only after some modicum of individualized review and administrative process, authorized by laws and regulations. A lack of due process under the Fifth and 14th amendments for those affected should not be hard to show, considering the hasty, sweeping changes enacted without administrative process or legislation, confusion on the ground, and reports of outright refusal to follow court orders. Moreover, green card holders have enhanced rights compared to non-green card holders against arbitrary treatment.*

4. Habeas Corpus. Lawyers at airports have been filing habeas corpus petitions around the clock for people being detained. In recent years, the Supreme Court strengthened the protections of habeas corpus for noncitizens repeatedly in rulings in cases brought by Guantánamo detainees. Zadvydas v. Davis. The national security or “plenary” power over immigration did not faze the justices in such rulings.

5. Family Reunification Rights.* The tragic stories of separated families bring out yet another constitutional right at stake that few have commented on: The Supreme Court has repeatedly recognized the importance of the fundamental right to family relationships. Family reunification is also of primary importance in immigration law.

The Supreme Court’s ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges emphasized how multiple constitutional rights magnified the harm of denying same-sex couples the right to marry. “The Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause are connected in a profound way,” Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority. The constitutional violations in that case were made worse because there was discrimination—over something as important as the fundamental right to marry. Today, these constitutional violations are worse because the order discriminates on the basis of religion, nationality, and ethnicity, over rights as important as due process, the right to family relationships, and the right not to be excluded unlawfully. The equal protection, due process, First Amendment, habeas, and fundamental rights violations that we describe are important standing along but even more devastating to the legality of the order when seen in tandem. As we have written in a 2015 article, constitutional rights magnify their power when they share reinforcing interests.*

There will always be cases where national security interests outweigh constitutional rights. But those should be handled on a case-by-case basis and not as a ban that stereotypes and discriminates against an entire group of people. Lawmakers should step in to reaffirm through legislation that national security regulation can be done right, and constitutionally. *
src: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/01/here_are_all_the_parts_of_the_constitution_trump_s_muslim_ban_violates.html

The above is far from exhaustive... IMO

International:

There is clear breaches of International Law regarding the Geneva conventions which the USA has voluntarily entered into since 1957

Declared by the UN as mean spirited and Illegal as per international Human rights Law.

Further as a reaction to the executive order issued by Trump, and how this order was further reinforced as intended and valid by the sacking of the AG who attempted to mitigate the disaster about to unfold, Trump, after being informed of the EU's concern refused to rescind his order thus further validating and demonstrating his deliberate and culpable intent. ( doing so with full knowledge of consequence)

The EU President has declared:
"Trump a threat to the European Union equal to Russia, China, Radical Islam and the war on terror.
 
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I don't know Trump's Machiavellian abilities well enough to know his motives

Exactly the word I would have used - Machiavellian

So here is a Machiavellian thought bubble

As I have posted elsewhere the Order could have had a delay of ball park figure of 10 hours for those already in transit (may be less)

Some have called for days or weeks

Echos of something Trump said on the campaign trail about not alerting the enemy you were coming by dropping leaflets lit up a neuron in my brain

And Trump has made comments on this Order matter to the effect of he had given days or weeks notice of the Order the bad guys would have immediately tried to enter America before it took effect

Why he didn't vet it with the AG?

A small mammal adapted to a subterranean lifestyle may be the reason

I am sure there would have been a few around in the myriad departments

I am NOT saying the AG is / was one

I don't think the particular mammal is that dumb to act the way she did

So let the Order be the Jack in the Box and no need to call the plumber
 
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