The two state solution fate

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The creation of the Israel was in line with self determination of the Jews of The Mandate, they owned land and homes and had industry and agriculture, so therefore in line with U.N. Charter.


As to the Palestininan State that was and is Jordan.

In 1947 Jews owned 10% of what is now Israel and the occupied territories. In 1947 Jews were 30% of the population of what is now Israel and the occupied territories.

Screw the UN. They are nothing but a public relations front for the World's organized crime bosses. When they become something else their words might start mattering.

The Palestinians state was not and is not Jordan.

There is only one state. It is Israel/Palestine and it is ruled by Israelis. The Palestinians in the occupied territories are political prisoners. Hamas is a prison gang that hates the prison guards. The Palestinian Authority is a prison gang that is paid by the business partners of the Prison guards and usually takes orders from the prison guards.
 
So you do not recognize your stance - of some kind of pretense of moral and political equivalence between aggressor and victim, of calling for an end to violence in the preservation of a status quo in which one side keeps its recent and still expanding gains by violence up to the minute of the "peace", and the other side accepts it losses and its recent degradations - as being favorable to one side and favorable to further violence from that side?

What I do not recognize is anything resembling "my stance" in your characterization. For example, I explicitly stated that a single secular state with equality for all residents is my ideal outcome. That means the outright dissolution of Israel, and not just as a state, but as a nation. How you can equate that with "preservation of a status quo" is beyond me. My stance is, in that sense, drastically more radical than anything you appear to be countenancing.

While I expected this sort of reaction from the likes of S.A.M., I have to say that I'm disappointed to hear it coming from you.

How do you promote commonality and peace in a situation in which understanding recognizes ongoing and severe injustice?

It's no easy matter, to be sure, but the first step is to inhibit the tendency of conflict to undermine commonality. It is possible to simultaneously recognize injustice and the counterproductivity of conflict, after all (at least amongst those who are not direct parties to the conflict). A key step in this process is the emphasis on individual agency over tokenism (again, this goes double for those who have no direct stake in the conflict in the first place).

See also my earlier comments about the danger of the emotional reaction to conflict being channeled towards nefarious ends. That understanding requires recognition of injustice does not imply that the depiction of injustice leads to understanding. Quite the opposite, typically, which is why the bad actors in the conflict place such a high emphasis on portrayal of injustice, and actively work to silence voices that would recognize certain other salient features.

You give yourself away when you introduce the canard of Hamas not "recognizing Israel's right to exist". Such a consideration not only reflects pro-Israeli bias and the taking of sides in the spin wars, but the consideration would be almost irrelevant in a genuine and practical attempt to reconcile two warring peoples as you pretend to favor in the quoted paragraph.

I stand by my perception that Hamas is a bad actor that is sustained by conflict (and so will work to sabotage any progress towards peace). And I reject the the idea that one must be some kind of pro-Israel partisan (or, at least, unwitting tool) in order to come to that conclusion. More than that, I hold that anyone who would impose such a false choice is themselves a tool of conflict and destruction.

I'm open to the prospect that my assessment of Hamas is mistaken (although the recognition issue is only one small example of what led me to that conclusion), but flat assertions that I hold ideas and motivations that I do not hold is not going to convince me of much of anything. Except that I should have less respect for you, of course.

As far as the irrelevance charge goes, I'm frankly puzzled by it. It seems to me that recognition of bad actors with the power to spoil reconciliation is a precondition of any such process, not an irrelevancy. The point is to reconcile the Palestinians and Israelis, remember, not (necessarily) Hamas and Likud. I would expect such a process to proceed via the marginalization of such bad actors, not their conversion. Supposing that's what you had in mind, anyway...
 
How do you define self determination? It has nothing to do with ethnicity or minority status.

Immigrants don't have any self determination in the country they go to. Until and unless they are accepted by the people who live there and recognized as citizens. Unless you kill most of the people who live there and impose yourselves on them. Then they have no self determination.

And define immigrant? How many of the Arabs in Palestine were from Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, moved there for work they couldn't find at home, are they immigrants to?

There was a indigenous population of Jews in the Palestine Mandate, and as such they had the right to self determination.

Again as I ask pj, provide citation from U.N. Charter were it states that self determination is not a right to the Jews of the Palestinian Mandate, West of the Jordan River.

Remember the Arabs had already received 80% of the Palestinian Mandate, all the lands east of the Jordan, and created a State, they were given their self determination, so why do you say the Jews West of the Jordan in what was left of the Palestinian Mandate didn't have the Right of Self Determination?

They were indigenous peoples to.

Plus there was a need for land for Jewish Refugees forced from Arab Lands, the great thing is the Israelis didn't lock them up in Refugee Camps like the Arabs did to their Arab Brothers from Palestine who they have never allowed to be anything else but refugees.

Show us were the U.N. Charter doesn't apply to the Jews and there right of return.

U.N. Security Council Resolution 242.

The right of return is not restricted to Arabs of Palestine, also in 242 that right is conditional on returning in Peace, and living in Peace.

The fact that Jews displaced from Arab countries were indeed bone fide refugees, under international law, is beyond question.

• On two separate occasions the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)
ruled that Jews fleeing from Arab countries were indeed ‘bona fide’ refugees who “fall
under the mandate of my (UNHCR) office”.1


1 Mr. Auguste Lindt, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Report of the UNREF Executive Committee, Fourth
Session – Geneva 29 January to 4 February, 1957; and Dr. E. Jahn, Office of the UN High Commissioner, United Nations
High Commissioner for Refugees, Document No. 7/2/3/Libya, July 6, 1967.



http://www.americanthinker.com/prin...m/2008/03/the_right_of_return_and_the_fo.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2962513/Jewish-Refugees-from-Arab-Countries
 
In 1947 Jews owned 10% of what is now Israel and the occupied territories. In 1947 Jews were 30% of the population of what is now Israel and the occupied territories.

Screw the UN. They are nothing but a public relations front for the World's organized crime bosses. When they become something else their words might start mattering.

The Palestinians state was not and is not Jordan.

There is only one state. It is Israel/Palestine and it is ruled by Israelis. The Palestinians in the occupied territories are political prisoners. Hamas is a prison gang that hates the prison guards. The Palestinian Authority is a prison gang that is paid by the business partners of the Prison guards and usually takes orders from the prison guards.


Really? not from the discription of the Mandate or the map:

This is the Palestinian Mandate as recieved by Britain in 1920

1920conference.gif


This is the Map as the British divided it for political control in 1921, and to set aside land for the future Jewish State.

britishmandate1923.gif


The whole of the area was the Palestinian Mandate, so the whole area was originally know as Palestine.

This is why the area west of the Jordan River was seperated from the rest of the Palestinian Mandate:

BALFOUR DECLARATION:

His Majesty’s Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national homeland for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this objective, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

and the rest of the Palestinian Mandate became the, Transjordan and became a Arab State as there was no such thing as a Palestinian.

So the Arabs had their State, as established under the League of Nations Mandate of Palestine, and from that point on set out to steal the area set asside for the Jewish State also promised by the League of Nations, and the BALFOUR DECLARATION.

So yes, the Transjordan was and is the Palestinian Arab State.
 
Buffalo Roam,

Come now, Israel has been responding to, barricading, check pointing, bombing, generally oppressing palestinains for decades and has it ending the terrorism?

And since the announcement of the State of Israel, in 1947, it has been under constant attack from the Arabs, the Arab States and the Arabs of Palestine.

Even the U.N. recognizes the right of Israel to enforce security and safe borders.
 
No, that is your job, you are the one who made the claim.
I'm sorry buffalo but no it isn't my job to educate you because you wish to debate topic you don't understand. Its your job to make sure you understand all relevant information.

The U.N. charter applies to all, equally, or to none, you can't pick and choose who you want it to apply to, the U.N Charter doesn't exclude Jews from self determination.
No where did I say the UN charter doesn't apply to jews. I just said that it doesn't give the jews a right to self determination. It is an inherent right in being a people which the creation of Israel denied the palestinian arabs.

So put up or shut up, and you can't.
I put up you just won't shut up.

So your grade is BOLO.
and your grade remains moron.
 
So the Arabs had their State, as established under the League of Nations Mandate of Palestine, and from that point on set out to steal the area set asside for the Jewish State also promised by the League of Nations, and the BALFOUR DECLARATION.
this is why unintelligent people like buffaloroam shouldn't be allowed into dicey debates such as this. They don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Balfour was made defunct by the UN charter. That whole self determination thing that buffallo can't seem to wrap his head around.
 
I'm sorry buffalo but no it isn't my job to educate you because you wish to debate topic you don't understand. Its your job to make sure you understand all relevant information.

No where did I say the UN charter doesn't apply to jews. I just said that it doesn't give the jews a right to self determination. It is an inherent right in being a people which the creation of Israel denied the palestinian arabs.

I put up you just won't shut up.

and your grade remains moron.

You educate me? what a crock.

It is your job to support your claims by posting supporting citation and verifiable source to support your musings.

You haven't proved one thing about your ranting, you always dance away from providing and supporting evidence, because you don't have any.

So far every thing you cite has the information to destroy your juvenile musings.

It is your job to support your mindless babbling, and you have done a poor job at best.

Grade BOLO.

You are incapable of finding supporting evidence, so you run your mouth and dance, oh do you dance.
 
And since the announcement of the State of Israel, in 1947, it has been under constant attack from the Arabs, the Arab States and the Arabs of Palestine.

Even the U.N. recognizes the right of Israel to enforce security and safe borders.

yeah but that did not counter my statement (Red Herring): that Israel's actions against the Palestinians (that you recommend must continue to defect Palestinians terrorism) has failed for decades to quench Palestinians terrorism.
 
You educate me? what a crock.
I agree you can't be educated. Your to arrogant and stupid.

It is your job to support your claims by posting supporting citation and verifiable source to support your musings.
which I did. The fact that it required knowledge that you do not have and refuse to have doesn't change the fact I did.

You haven't proved one thing about your ranting, you always dance away from providing and supporting evidence, because you don't have any.
I have always proved my point. You once again feel that just because you don't get it means I didn't.

So far every thing you cite has the information to destroy your juvenile musings.
This from the man in his attempt to prove Israel's creation was legal proved there was no legal basis for it.

It is your job to support your mindless babbling, and you have done a poor job at best.
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it mindless. I have supported my claim. In fact I in one thread made sure to use a source that could be used against me in hopes it would get you to try and learn about a term in stead of ranting about it( it didn't)

Grade BOLO.
What the fuck does BOLO even mean. This shows just how fucking stupid you are. Your trying to insult me with terms I don't know. The entire point of an insult requires the person understand it.

You are incapable of finding supporting evidence, so you run your mouth and dance, oh do you dance.
Your incapable of thinking let alone refuting an argument so you insult people. and I see you still using terms you don't have a clue what they mean.
 
pj you lost, but keep on dancing, it is ammusing.
How did I lose exactly? was it the part when you proved that UNGCR 181 couldn't legally create Israel or was it when I showed that the creation of Israel denied the Palestinian their right to self determination? You made your self look like a moronic ass by not learning about all relevent information about the topic and than when I refused to give said info( ie educating you) you declared your self the victor. You would be amusing if it weren't for the fact you bigotry, ignorance, stupidity, blood lust, blind partisan fanaticism, and complete contempt of those who know more or are smarter than you make you dangerous.
 
How did I lose exactly? was it the part when you proved that UNGCR 181 couldn't legally create Israel or was it when I showed that the creation of Israel denied the Palestinian their right to self determination? You made your self look like a moronic ass by not learning about all relevent information about the topic and than when I refused to give said info( ie educating you) you declared your self the victor. You would be amusing if it weren't for the fact you bigotry, ignorance, stupidity, blood lust, blind partisan fanaticism, and complete contempt of those who know more or are smarter than you make you dangerous.

Your own citation pj, you lost, but keep on dancing, it is ammusing.
 
I would think I'm the one on the to of the hill here, or are you going to counter my argument?
 
yeah but that did not counter my statement (Red Herring): that Israel's actions against the Palestinians (that you recommend must continue to defect Palestinians terrorism) has failed for decades to quench Palestinians terrorism.

of course it failed. giving them more land wont appease them, it never those, they become even more hungry. if we did what we were supposed to do, then maybe. but we had to legitimize them.
 
of course it failed. giving them more land wont appease them, it never those, they become even more hungry. if we did what we were supposed to do, then maybe. but we had to legitimize them.

Technically you haven't given them more land, they have had less land or less control over land as a general trend over the decades. What needed is large area of land (say the west bank) in which they are free to move around (no check points) in fact no israelis intervention what so ever (just build a wall around the west bank, and state your border as that.) Any Israelis that want to live in the west bank have to live under Palestinian law and government. If the Palestinians shoot rockets and morters, just shoot them down, do not invade palestinian in a military offensive for that is exactly what the terrorist want to rally Palestinian and Arab support for them.
 
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