What are poltergeists?

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Magical Realist said:
Science isn't about dismissing a phenomena because it doesn't conform to our expectations of how something like that can occur. It is simply taking the phenomena as given by the evidence, in all of it's strangeness and defiance to what we deem natural laws.
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Exactly. And it then involves examining the likelihood of it happening via known mechanisms - and being honest about the results, no matter what your beliefs might be.
 
Magical Realist said:
Assuming our reproduction of it tells us how it happens. But as with quantum entanglement, it doesn't.
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Quantum theory is something of a black box. There's an elaborate mathematical apparatus that allows physicists to make predictions of what they will observe (at least probabilistically). But physics doesn't really know what kind of physical mechanisms lurk within the mysterious quantum box, beyond being sure that they can't be classical. That's where the philosophical interpretations come in.

So I guess that we can say that quantum theory lacks the kind of explanatory power that classical physics has. It allows us to predict what will happen, but doesn't do much to help us understand why.

Nevertheless, I'd say that it's still a lot more enlightening than parapsychology or theology.
 
That's why I wrote earlier that while I'm strongly inclined to consider poltergeist phenomena to be phenomena of popular folklore (that's certainly my working hypothesis) I can't 100% exclude the possibility that something else might be happening. If that's the case, then I don't know what it is.

I have the same views about religious miracles.
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If someone told me about nonlocality or quantum entanglement or retrocausality or the quantum zeno effect without scientific evidence, I would not be inclined to believe them. There are enough implications in these concepts about the nature of reality to overturn alot of things we assume based on common sense. The same applies to paranormal phenomena. I would never have entertained its possibility had I not seen the scads of evidence for it. This leaves me in the inconvenient position of having to reconcile a scientific universe with a reality that appears to contradict it. Or maybe the contradiction is only my assumption. I'm content not to know everything. I'm fine living inside the Infinite Mystery.
 
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Yes. Almost by definition.
Paranormal phenomena are unscientific. To be able to prove them would require them conforming to scientific enquiry, and thus be scientific.
A scientific paranormal phenomena is contradictory.
 
Sarkus said:
Yes. Almost by definition.
Paranormal phenomena are unscientific. To be able to prove them would require them conforming to scientific enquiry, and thus be scientific.
A scientific paranormal phenomena is contradictory.
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No..it would only prove a phenomenon that doesn't conform to our current level of scientific knowledge.
 
Yazata said:
If reproducibility on demand is required in order for something to be real, then too bad for a whole host of physical phenomena ranging from meteorite falls to supernovae. The origin of life would seem to be another example. I think that earthquakes are a good example, since simulating earthquake ground movements for purposes of testing architectural structures isn't the same thing as calling up geological processes on demand.
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I fail to understand your reasoning. We have very good physics based theories as to why S/N occur, the same with meteorites and Earthquakes.
We don't need to reproduce them.
Yazata said:
My purpose in posting this isn't to argue for the reality of poltergeists. I'm inclined to think that the only reality they have is as folklore. I just don't like seeing naive and simplistic philosophy of science being thrown around in the arrogant and insulting ways that seem to have become habitual on Sciforums.
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From where I sit, any arrogance and insults are being leveled by MR in his continued grand mission to try and devalue science in general.
I certainly stick to my claim that poltergeists, ghosts, goblins etc are at best unexplained phenomena in some cases [easily explained in other cases] , and at worst totally against any scientific reasoning and logic.
 
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From where I sit, any arrogance and insults are being leveled by MR in his continued grand mission to try and devalue science in general.
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You're making a claim that I insulted you. Quote the post where I did that then.
 
Magical Realist said:
You're making a claim that I insulted you. Quote the post where I did that then.
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??? :)
Wow!!! You certainly have a problem with the English language...or is this just another example of your intellectual dishonesty?..or paranoia? .or maybe just plain trolling?
Oh, and I totally stand by my claim thus.......
"From where I sit, any arrogance and insults are being leveled by MR in his continued grand mission to try and devalue science in general."
 
paddoboy said:
??? :)
Wow!!! You certainly have a problem with the English language...or is this just another example of your intellectual dishonesty?..or paranoia? .or maybe just plain trolling?
Oh, and I totally stand by my claim thus.......
"From where I sit, any arrogance and insults are being leveled by MR in his continued grand mission to try and devalue science in general."
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So now you insult me as intellectually dishonest, paranoid, and trolling, but can't provide any proof of me insulting you. Just as I thought..You're going to get this thread closed for off-topic insults just as you and Kittamaru did to the "Proof of the Supernatural" thread..
 
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Fraggle Rocker said: ↑
My purpose in posting this isn't to argue for the reality of poltergeists. I'm inclined to think that the only reality they have is as folklore. I just don't like seeing naive and simplistic philosophy of science being thrown around in the arrogant and insulting ways that seem to have become habitual on Sciforums.
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Fraggle Rocker didn't say that. Yazata did.
 
Magical Realist said:
So now you insult me as intellectually dishonest, paranoid, and trolling, but can't provide any proof of me insulting you. Just as I thought..
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According to recent evidence, most certainly those "qualities" are evident in your makeup and unreasonable fanaticism on this subject, not to metion your continued mission in insulting scientists, and trying to devalue science.
 
paddoboy said:
According to recent evidence, most certainly those "qualities" are evident in your makeup and unreasonable fanaticism on this subject, not to metion your continued mission in insulting scientists, and trying to devalue science.
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Where did I insult you? Quote the post. It should be easy for you to do.
 
Magical Realist said:
Proving the paranormal exists makes it non-paranormal. Ok..lol!
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Exactly. We once thought tides were paranormal. We thought cauls were a sign from God. We thought that people hearing voices meant they were having a paranormal experience. We thought that the Giant's Causeway was built by mythological beings. Now we understand where all those things come from.
 
billvon said:
Exactly. We once thought tides were paranormal. We thought cauls were a sign from God. We thought that people hearing voices meant they were having a paranormal experience. We thought that the Giant's Causeway was built by mythological beings. Now we understand where all those things come from.
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You're confusing proving the paranormal exists with explaining it. Merely proving it exists doesn't mean its scientific. It could merely prove the existence of spirits, something science certainly has no explanation for.
 
Magical Realist said:
You're confusing proving the paranormal exists with explaining it. Merely proving it exists doesn't mean its scientific. It could merely prove the existence of spirits, something science certainly has no explanation for.
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Once they are proven to exist they become science. Science is the process of explaining how the world works. If "spirits" are proven to exist, and can interact with the real world, then they are well within the realm of science. (Of course, they may be nothing like what ghost hunters think they are.)
 
billvon said:
Once they are proven to exist they become science. Science is the process of explaining how the world works. If "spirits" are proven to exist, and can interact with the real world, then they are well within the realm of science. (Of course, they may be nothing like what ghost hunters think they are.)
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Nope..acknowledging the existence of spirits does not make it scientific. It doesn't make it anything. It is what it is. Only explaining spirits would make it scientific.
 
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