Why isn't faith embarrasing?

S.A.M. said:
Just take a number and add it to the pot.

You should also know that in the mainstream, Muslims do not believe there are 72 virgins waiting for them.
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Thank you for clarifying that. The only place I hate ignorance more than in other people is in myself. I have been meaning to purchase a copy of the Koran and read it for my research, but I have such a mountain of material I need to read I haven't gotten around to it.

This is why I came to this forum, to enhance my education. Gives me ideas of new avenues to pursue.

I am more interested in the areas of religious/philosophical study than science, which is why I'm sticking to this section of the forums.

Sorry I got snappy with you earlier, but that "casual learner" comment really ticked me off.

I find it interesting that this issue of "72 virgins" has been given so much attention by the Western media. It stands as only one of millions of examples of disgusting outright bias and deceit, especially in regards to Muslims these days. I can't stomach television anymore, and this is a part of it.
 
I find it interesting that this issue of "72 virgins" has been given so much attention by the Western media
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This is hardly a new tactic. Its been modus operandi in the west for over a thousand years. Recall the most widely used (and cited and recommended) text on Indian history was written by a man who never set foot in the place. :D

At a time when social subjects were as a rule treated empirically, he brought first principles to bear at every point. His greatest literary monument is the History of India. The materials for narrating the acquisition by the United Kingdom of its Indian Empire were put into shape for the first time; a vast body of political theory was brought to bear on the delineation of the Hindu civilization; and the conduct of the actors in the successive stages of the conquest and administration of India was subjected to a severe criticism. The work itself, and the author's official connexion with India for the last seventeen years of his life, effected a complete change in the whole system of governing that country. It is noteworthy that Mill never visited the Indian colony, relying solely on documentary material and archival records in compiling his work.
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Any cursory look at western representation of Eastern religion, culture or history will give you the same results.

To be utterly fair, in the modern age, such work has been debunked most completely by western scholars themselves.

And if you are going to be reading the Qur'an in a language other than Arabic, a few pointers:

http://soundvision.com/Info/quran/english.asp

http://www.meforum.org/article/717
 
I've only been to China once, but I must say that it certainly didn't fit the "Hollywood" version of the country. I was very impressed with both the people and the culture. Hell, I even felt kind of ashamed. They were so friendly and generous it made me feel like a savage or something. There is a level of degeneracy in Western culture that is appalling.
 
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S.A.M. said:
You're quoting Ibn Warraq? :rolleyes:
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I am not quoting anyone, it is an article. I am from the west and honestly i dont know much at all about this 72 virgins and dont even recall it being brought up much, even in the media. You are stretching the truth by claiming it is a tactic of the west.
 
S.A.M. said:
This is hardly a new tactic. Its been modus operandi in the west for over a thousand years. Recall the most widely used (and cited and recommended) text on Indian history was written by a man who never set foot in the place. :D



Any cursory look at western representation of Eastern religion, culture or history will give you the same results.

To be utterly fair, in the modern age, such work has been debunked most completely by western scholars themselves.

And if you are going to be reading the Qur'an in a language other than Arabic, a few pointers:

http://soundvision.com/Info/quran/english.asp

http://www.meforum.org/article/717
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Yeah I figured the translation issue would be a mine field, just as it is with the Bible.

The King James is the "Authorized Version" and comes complete with over 5,000 translation errors, many I think were intentional. The other "unauthorized" versions have similar problems, one even attempts to eliminate the male bias and make it unisex. You can bet that pissed some Christians off, as it should, since it is not faithful to the original. Many of these mistranslations completely alter the intended meaning of the text. When I study a verse I try to do multiple comparisons to see the similarities and differences. If I can I look at footnotes regarding the original text. Still it's a pretty sad state of affairs when you can't get a true unbiased translation of the Bible.

So no surprise that the Koran(Quran?) has these issues as well. Maybe you can suggest one for me that would be reasonably faithful?
 
John99 said:
I am not quoting anyone, it is an article. I am from the west and honestly i dont know much at all about this 72 virgins and dont even recall it being brought up much, even in the media. You are stretching the truth by claiming it is a tactic of the west.
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The west has an active anti-Muslim propaganda campaign or hadn't you noticed?

I hear the reference a lot, but not always on TV.
 
John99 said:
So you hear it from your friends then?.
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Folks I know online have mentioned it pretty frequently. It's always used in the form of an insult as well.

I just did a search for the number 72 on one of the online searchable English Koran texts and can confirm that it did not come up at all. Based on that I would have to assume SAM is 100% correct on her source for this one.

Something similar happened with Milton's "Paradise Lost" and the name and concept of Lucifer in the Bible. The word Lucifer only comes up once in the entire Bible and only in the English King James version. In the original text it is more accurately translated as "the Morning Star". This is in reference to the planet Venus. For this reason most Christians are mistakenly of the understanding that Satan and Lucifer are the same character, but they are actually two completely different characters.

This same weirdness applies to "the beast" of Revelations. The "beast" is nothing more than the constellation hydra, which is described as a "seven headed dragon" with "ten horns".

All are separate astrology based characters, but Christian theologians have merged them into one character with many names.
 
QuestionEverything said:
So no surprise that the Koran(Quran?) has these issues as well. Maybe you can suggest one for me that would be reasonably faithful?
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Perhaps Asads translation would be most helpful. Notwithstanding some "tweaks" his is the simplest translation and does not kowtow to the Saudi endorsed versions (with dollops of Wahabism).

Ideally, as a recital, it should be read in the original language.
 
S.A.M. said:
Perhaps Asads translation would be most helpful. Notwithstanding some "tweaks" his is the simplest translation and does not kowtow to the Saudi endorsed versions (with dollops of Wahabism).
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Thanks for the tip.

Ideally, as a recital, it should be read in the original language.
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I'm sure, but I don't know if I'm ready for that kind of commitment! :D
 
Well my philosophy is that people can believe anything they want, as long as it does not involve killing people.

I just did a search for the number 72 on one of the online searchable English Koran texts and can confirm that it did not come up at all. Based on that I would have to assume SAM is 100% correct on her source for this one.
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There is no mention of virgins in heaven?:shrug:

This is from the article i cited.

What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."
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Is that in there or not? What is houris?
 
John99 said:
Well my philosophy is that people can believe anything they want, as long as it does not involve killing people.



There is no mention of virgins in heaven?:shrug:

This is from the article i cited.



Is that in there or not? What is houris?
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Yeah, too bad the killing always seems to be the final result. But in fairness I think most of that is political leaders manipulating the religious into killing for the leaders' agenda.

Well I was being a little more specific about the number, but yeah I see what you mean.

Hey I want to be a Muslim so I can get some houris(es) in the afterlife! :xctd:

Seriously though, if that's true what do the Muslim women get?
 
S.A.M. said:
Now I'm pissed because obviously you have deleted (from your mind) the information I gave you on the etymology of the hur'in. :mad:
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Yes that's right, you mentioned cows or some such didn't you!? The explanation you gave on that one was somewhat convoluted. I shall reread it...
 
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