Words and dreams

[Bishadi]

More lies.


More stupidity.

as you confirmed it with denying the submission of evidence

Please reference post #40 and comply with the board rules.

i offered material any can look up even with a scientific reference to polaritonics so any can see the phenomenon in real world science versus just your whinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnning?

i used words, that you perhaps don't comprehend and with evidence you don't comprehend.

which means if you DO NOT COMPREHEND, perhaps you should check up on the material before opening your keyboard

or if you really want more (with the publications); then just hop on over to the chemistry and physics arenas on the forum and see where the same material evidence can be found (already on the website)

there you can read for a few months and learn enough to be capable of addressing the items i asked you about ( explaination on glial (gfra3 complex and artemin) )

My statement was backed up with an argument: if memories aren't recorded when made they wouldn't be available later for "recording".
It's called "common sense".

that common sense is proven wrong by realizing and the experimental evidence of what sleep deprivation does


but since we know you WILL NOT do any homework, perhaps i can assist with just flooding the forum with more data than you can handle

Memory Consolidation and REM Sleep
Robert Miller
Aldous Huxley's Brave New World considers the possibility of humans learning simply by listening to recorded messages played during their sleep. Can learning really be this simple? What is the role of sleep in learning and memory? It is known that sleep exists in two phases, REM and Non REM sleep. It is speculated that Non REM sleep is the time that the body and brain use to rebuild themselves after a long period of wakefulness (1). REM sleep, however cannot be easily explained. Scientists have speculated that REM sleep performs many functions among them development of the brain, synthesis of neuro-proteins, and coordination of eye movements (1). This paper will explore one specific function of REM sleep: the role in memory consolidation. There are many theories floating around the internet, but no common truths about the mechanisms of how the brain serves to remember events of the day during REM sleep.
REM sleep is a period late in the sleep cycle in which the brain and body become active, increasing heart rate and blood pressure. The eyes shudder quickly back and forth, giving this stage the name Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep. Electroencephalograph patterns for REM sleep are much like those during wakefulness, and include many fast beta-rhythms (2). It may even be that the brain works harder during REM sleep than when awake (3). REM sleep usually lasts anywhere from 11 to 25 minutes, typically longer in the later sleep cycles of the night (2). REM sleep is most often associated with dreaming, for most dreams occur during this period.

One of the first theories linking REM sleep to memory was offered in 1966 by Roffwarg, Musio and Dement and suggested that repetitive firing of neurons during REM sleep in human fetuses was associated with neuron growth and development, and this synaptic reinforcement continued in adult life during REM sleep. This landmark concept lead to the theory of dynamic stabilization which speculates that information, both inherited or learned, is remembered by repetitive use of the circuits which store the information (4). Dynamic stabilization is the spontaneous firing of these neurons during REM sleep, which would effect the same result on memory as function use. The theory of dynamic stabilization also proposes that REM sleep increases the activity of neuron circuits which are usually dormant during wakefulness. In other words, memories which we don't think about from day to day are relived during REM sleep (in the form of dreams) so that we can remember them when needed (4).

or perhaps

Experimental data with animals seems to agree with the functional link between REM sleep and memory. Rats subjected to learning tasks demonstrated increased REM sleep after these tests. This reflects that learning induces REM sleep. In addition, it was found that rats subjected to learning fell into REM sleep faster if they had experienced more trials of the learning activity. A possible explanation of the earlier occurrence of REM sleep may be that as more information is acquired, it becomes more urgent to begin the memory consolidation process

or

Sleep deprivation at either time point had no effect on cued fear conditioning, a hippocampus-independent task. Previous studies have determined that memory consolidation for fear conditioning is impaired when protein kinase A and protein synthesis inhibitors are administered at the same time as when sleep deprivation is effective, suggesting that sleep deprivation may act by modifying these molecular mechanisms of memory storage.

so can you assist in the storage and how the mechanism works

or are you going to continue trolling?

 

[Bishadi]

Accepted 10 June 2003. ; Available online 9 July 2003.

Abstract
This study was aimed to ascertain the effect of sleep deprivation on subsequent cerebral ischemia in the rat hippocampal formation. Seven days after transient global cerebral ischemia induced by four-vessel occlusion method, most of the pyramidal cells in the hippocampal CA1 subfield underwent disruption and pyknosis as detected by cresyl violet staining. With OX-42, OX-18, OX-6 and ED1 immunohistochemistry, robust microglia/macrophage reactions were observed in the CA1 and dentate hilus. The majority of reactive microglia was rod-shaped, bushy or amoeboidic cells bearing hypertrophic processes. Astrocytes also displayed hypertrophic processes, whose immunostaining for glial fibrillary acidic protein was markedly enhanced. The ischemia-induced neuronal damage and glial reactions, however, were noticeably attenuated in rats subjected to pretreatment with sleep deprivation for five consecutive days. The most drastic effect was the diminution of OX-18, OX-6 and ED1 immunoreactivities, suggesting that the immune potentiality and/or phagocytosis of these cells was suppressed by prolonged sleep deprivation prior to ischemic insult. It is postulated that sleep deprivation may have a preconditioning influence on subsequent lethal cerebral ischemia. Hence, sleep deprivation may be considered as a therapeutic strategy in brain ischemic damage.

hmmmm.....

perhaps try a lesson with something other than newsweek

http://www.benbest.com/health/sleep.html

The Nature of Sleep and its Impact on Health
by Ben Best


CONTENTS: LINKS TO SECTIONS
I.BACKGROUND
II.HEALTH CONDITIONS LEADING TO SLEEP DISTURBANCES
III.EEG SLEEP PATTERNS
IV.SLEEP AND SLEEPINESS
V.CIRCADIAN RHYTHMS
VI.EFFECTS OF SLEEP DEPRIVATION ON MENTAL AND PHYSICAL HEALTH
VII.DREAMING AND REM SLEEP
VIII.IMPROVING SLEEP AND COPING WITH SLEEPINESS
IX.THE NEUROPHYSIOLOGY OF SLEEP

after you have read that then you will be able to at least comment intelligently on the basics

 

[Oli]

as you confirmed it with denying the submission of evidence

Wrong again.

i offered material any can look up even with a scientific reference to polaritonics so any can see the phenomenon in real world science versus just your whinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnning?

Also wrong: you spout nonsense and don't say how (if it in fact actually does) it supports your position.

that common sense is proven wrong by realizing and the experimental evidence of what sleep deprivation does

Wrong again. All round.

but since we know you WILL NOT do any homework, perhaps i can assist with just flooding the forum with more data than you can handle

That'll be the day.
Unless you mean false/ spurious data.

Oh look: your quotes states MY position

the role in memory consolidation

it becomes more urgent to begin the memory consolidation process

that memory consolidation

Consolidation: filing/ storing NOT recording.

so can you assist in the storage and how the mechanism works

So it's not the recording then?

or are you going to continue trolling?

Keep it up, you continue to show yourself for the idiot/ liar that you are.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

now cal up the berkeley gang and ask them to identify the 'f' (which wavelength/frequency) is passing through the junction.

Call up the Berkely Gang
That's funny.

 

[Bishadi]

Call up the Berkely Gang
That's funny.

why would it be

Researchers have for the first time obtained a high-resolution structure of a three-molecule receptor-ligand complex that could help shed light on neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's. The complex includes two receptor molecules, called GFRa3, bound with its ligand, artemin, which fit together like a lock and key. These molecules play a key role in chemical signal transmission and in the development and health of neurons.

This research was the result of macromolecular crystallography data measured at SSRL BL11-1 and at the Advanced Light Source in Berkeley. Researchers collected x-ray diffraction data from two types of crystals- the artemin-GFRa3 bound complex, and artemin by itself - overcoming the inherent difficulty of growing receptor molecules such as GFRa3 to into crystals.

Glia are important nervous system cells that help regulate the internal environment in the brain. Artemin is one of four compounds belonging to a family of ligands known as glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF), which are responsible for maintaining the health of dopaminergic and motorneurons. Other ligands in this family include GDNF itself, neurturin, and persephin. GDNF and its receptor GFRa1 have been linked to neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's disease, but have so far defied crystallization. The artemin-GFRa3 complex is structurally similar to GDNF-GFRa1, and therefore determining the structure of this related complex could lead to the development of new therapies for neurodegenerative diseases.

what is wrong with people?

why can't real people do real things that cause real actions: by a choice that is geared for others and not themselves?


Oli........... i have said it before and i will say it again; you are so far out of your league it is rediculous.

 

[Oli]

Oli........... i have said it before and i will say it again; you are so far out of your league it is rediculous.

Really?
Is that why you post references that back me up and contradict you?
Or alternatively (as with the post above) take us away from the topic altogether.
Or did you mean that you're playing for the kindergarten and I keep lowering myself to address your posts?

By the way, one more spelling lesson: it's ridiculous.
Bishadi, it has been stated time and time again (and not just by me): you generally have no idea what you're talking about.
Please go away.

 

[Dub_]

Hi Bishadi and Oli,

Both of you are correct in a sense, since memory consolidation could be thought of both as "recording" and "sorting" of memories; these really just emphasize different perspectives on the same process. Your heated disagreement is, in my estimation, superficial and purely semantic in origin. It's not even clear which word represents a "better" analogy for the consolidation process, since we really don't know if it's more of a sorting process (e.g., organizing a file cabinet) or a simple strengthening process (e.g., waving a Kodak photograph through the air to hasten development).

Also Bishadi, I'm not a neurobiologist but I did study some neurobiology as an undergraduate, and I can't recall ever reading that glial cells play an active role in storing memory traces, as you asserted in post #48. None of the material that you posted implied this, either. Do you have some other sources on the matter? I am speaking as someone who is genuinely interested.

 

[Bishadi]

Really?
Is that why you post references that back me up and contradict you?
Or alternatively (as with the post above) take us away from the topic altogether.
Or did you mean that you're playing for the kindergarten and I keep lowering myself to address your posts?

By the way, one more spelling lesson: it's ridiculous.
Bishadi, it has been stated time and time again (and not just by me): you generally have no idea what you're talking about.
Please go away.

bet more people are looking around by my hand than anything you ever did your whole life

if you haven't noticed, i don't care what any think of me personally

i just like people to join me outside to take a peek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ

there is more outside of the cave (plato) to understand

 

[Oli]

Possibly, but "recording" is not an accurate description. Even your own analogy doesn't support it. The film, once exposed, has already done the "recording" - anything else is icing on the cake.

 

[Oli]

bet more people are looking around by my hand than anything you ever did your whole life

Looking around by your hand?
Is that English?
And if I understand your garbled phrase correctly you'd be incorrect on your bet.

if you haven't noticed, i don't care what any think of me personally

Yup, I noticed that.
It's how you've managed sustain such a long posting "career": by ignoring everyone who was right and continuing your delusion.

there is more outside of the cave (plato) to understand

More specious crap.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Call up the Berkely Gang
That's funny.

why would it be

Oh, Sorry. It isn't Berkely, it's Barksdale.
I thought you meant the Barksdale gang from the TV series The Wire.
You wouldn't want them calling round, and that's for sure.

 

[Dub_]

It's true that it's not a perfect analogy, but it's the first one that came to mind -- in any case you seem to get my meaning . Anyway, my point is that nearly the entire disagreement between you two hinges on how one chooses to define the word recording. Your definition of "recording" is IMO more akin to "attending" (i.e., getting the stimulus into your head in the first place); but merely attending to a stimulus hardly guarantees later retrieval, as the word "recording" would imply. Nothing is really "recorded" into memory (either LTM or STM) until a certain degree of consolidation has taken place, so it's useful to think of consolidation as recording since it is the very process that leads to later access to that memory. Likewise, it is useful to think of consolidation as "sorting" since many theorists claim that consolidation works in this way (e.g., the file cabinet analogy), but importantly, this is still conjecture at this point in time and there is not yet empirical evidence to support this view of consolidation.

So like I said, neither word is incorrect when referring to consolidation, they simply represent different perspectives on the process.

 

[Oli]

It's true that it's not a perfect analogy, but it's the first one that came to mind -- in any case you seem to get my meaning . Anyway, my point is that nearly the entire disagreement between you two hinges on how one chooses to define the word recording. Your definition of "recording" is IMO more akin to "attending" (i.e., getting the stimulus into your head in the first place); but merely attending to a stimulus hardly guarantees later retrieval, as the word "recording" would imply. Nothing is really "recorded" into memory (either LTM or STM) until a certain degree of consolidation has taken place, so it's useful to think of consolidation as recording since it is the very process that leads to later access to that memory. Likewise, it is useful to think of consolidation as "sorting" since many theorists claim that consolidation works in this way (e.g., the file cabinet analogy), but importantly, this is still conjecture at this point in time and there is not yet empirical evidence to support this view of consolidation.
So like I said, neither word is incorrect when referring to consolidation, they simply represent different perspectives on the process.

Meh, just to be picky.
As I said earlier: if it hasn't been recorded then it won't be available for consolidation (or whatever you want to call it).
I will admit that during the sorting some memories are discarded and others assigned (for want of a better term) as LTM/ STM.

 

[Bishadi]

Hi Bishadi and Oli,

Both of you are correct in a sense, since memory consolidation could be thought of both as "recording" and "sorting" of memories; these really just emphasize different perspectives on the same process.

correct

as often words get in the way

Your heated disagreement is, in my estimation, superficial and purely semantic in origin. It's not even clear which word represents a "better" analogy for the consolidation process, since we really don't know if it's more of a sorting process (e.g., organizing a file cabinet) or a simple strengthening process (e.g., waving a Kodak photograph through the air to hasten development).

either way; the coherance of mind (conscious) observing a body of memories is what is really important.

To understand how the 'memory' is recorded, is really important. Rather than a binary or linkage of wiring. (neurons are said to be like wiring (old) Using "gates" like an electronic system (on/off), the actual input is of energy in wavelengths (em) at the molecular scale. The tubular structure of axon and even the cytoskeleton offers the similarity to nano structures and the science behind them is growing offering evidence that is being cross referenced.

the analogies are combining in which the most efficient energy transfers are in fact not electrical in nature (electronics frame of ideology to neural exchanges) but are in reality electromagnetic in wavelengths/frequency.

then to have evidence that polaritonics exists, combined with the crystal structures within glial; all it will take is someone like you to finish it

the exchanges between the structures is em; the rest is down hill to a few thinking folk

This will allow the understanding of how that coherance can exist. (consciousness)

Also Bishadi, I'm not a neurobiologist but I did study some neurobiology as an undergraduate, and I can't recall ever reading that glial cells play an active role in storing memory traces, as you asserted in post #48. None of the material that you posted implied this, either. Do you have some other sources on the matter? I am speaking as someone who is genuinely interested.

i will offer you anything you like, what you are reading from me is the combining of a bunch of material

PM me and we can begin and i will send you publications from all over the world covering a range of material bridging many areas of physics, biology and specifically neurology or purely the exchange of energy between all living things.

You ask the questions, i will post up what i can.

just so Oli is aware, the exchange of energy at the molecular scale and the ToE all originated from the work done in research on the chemical exchanges (old school) that evolved into 'photo neuron conduction' representing the exchange between synaptic connections. (that is a subject i know better than fishing (and i am a damn good fisherman)

i wanted to know 'how it worked' (30 yrs ago) and since; you should see what the globe has to offer in evidence.

 

[Bishadi]

Looking around by your hand?
Is that English?
And if I understand your garbled phrase correctly you'd be incorrect on your bet.

did you ever know what glial was?

or even like someone who has been reading is inquiring.

wonder if he has a 'google'?

lot's of googlin going on


you just don't doodle in the google to increase the operation of your noodle

Yup, I noticed that.
It's how you've managed sustain such a long posting "career": by ignoring everyone who was right and continuing your delusion.

would be fun to see the look on your face

More specious crap.

we in a philosophy section dude

plato's cave anology???? (walking out/pardigm shifts) come see????

hit the link, watch the youtube movie; perhaps be at least trying to learn something (fake it, just this once)

 

[Oli]

did you ever know what glial was?

Side tracks again?

we in a philosophy section dude
plato's cave anology???? (walking out/pardigm shifts) come see????

I know, old stuff.
Did it decades ago.
Nothing to do with the topic.