"You don't need philosophy to prove reality" - Geeser

As long as you are the one trying to ascertain truth, there is an element of subjectivity in your endeavor.
How so Explain.
Why do I need subjectivity to understand that a rock or what ever label or not you wish to give it, is a rock. Using an objective method, I can ascertain a rock is a rock is a rock, no need for subjectivity a truth is a truth and will be a truth, regardless of whether you or I or the goal post wish to discuss it.

We do not actually know how the world would be, and whether it would be at all, even if just one living entity would be annulled.
So your a solipsist. Nothing is real to you.

Exactly. Geeser's position does not withstand reflexive criticism. His position is, in effect, solipsistic.
I suggest you check the post that glaucon was replying too. See previous reply, above,
I use an objective methodology to ascertain truth, as I said earlier so I'm far from solipsistic.
 
Why do I need subjectivity to understand that a rock or what ever label or not you wish to give it, is a rock. Using an objective method, I can ascertain a rock is a rock is a rock, no need for subjectivity a truth is a truth and will be a truth, regardless of whether you or I or the goal post wish to discuss it.

Because you are the one doing the understanding; you are the one who has the understanding.



So your a solipsist. Nothing is real to you.

WOW. :eek:
Guys, do you see this?
 
Because you are the one doing the understanding; you are the one who has the understanding.


WOW. :eek:
Guys, do you see this?

Oh it's not just you Signal...
Some people seem to be immune to reason.
 
Because you are the one doing the understanding; you are the one who has the understanding.
If I didn't exist would the truth cease to be the truth.
WOW. :eek:
Guys, do you see this?
I'm sure they see it, so what. By your posts you obviously suffer from solipsism syndrome.
glaucon said:
Oh it's not just you Signal...
Some people seem to be immune to reason.
I totally agree with that.
 
Lol, does that mean that objective reality ceases to exist if the said entity judges it to be non existent, or is reality the only thing that must be true.
Reality (objective ) is the only truth that remains regardless on whether you or I exist.

The problem is that you are making an assumption about "reality" that it is independently existing, but one can relax that assumption. What we think of as "reality" may indeed be independent of you or me or the human race, and yet still not be "real" as we commonly think of it.

Everything we know about the world comes from our senses, but it is a simple matter to show that our senses are in fact an elaborate interpretation in our brains of impulses transmitted by our nervous system.

In many cases we already know that these interpretations could in a certain sense be said to not reflect the underlying reality of the world. For example, we never say "Wow, that complex longitudinal pressure wave is moving through the air has a high amplitude!" We say "Wow, that noise is loud." Our brain converts what are merely pressure variations in the air into what we conceive of as "sounds." A similar process occurs with heat, our brains interpret molecular vibrations in a peculiar way, such that what we experience does not intuitively "feel" like a vibration at all.

It can also be shown that the signals can be faked. Stimulation of the brain's visual center can create the illusion of lights, for example, even if there are no lights for the subject to see.

So, all the senses could, in fact, be leading us astray and not be any more accurate a representation of the world than "sound" accurately conveys the impression that sound waves are merely pressure variations moving in the air (or other medium). Worse, since those signals can be faked, we can never be absolutely certain that our impressions of the world, conveyed through the senses are in any sense real. If a Matrix-style artificial "reality" were sufficiently detailed, we'd simply have no way to distinguish it from you imagine to be reality.

One can, and most do, choose to believe that the senses are reasonably accurate, and that the world they allow us to perceive is not being artificially generated, but that itself is a philosophical position that one must hold without evidence. That position, and its contrary, are both fundamentally unproveable.

If a sufficiently advanced civilization, with sufficiently advanced computers, were running a simulation of your life (or the human condition generally) in a computer, that simulation might include you in all your complexity. In such a simulation, you would be aware of your world, but not its virtual nature, and you'd believe and experience all the same things you do now--and be none the wiser. Consider though, that simulations are often run more than once. They are often repeated countless times. If there is one real universe, but countless simulations of that reality, and we could never tell one from the other, then one could argue that it is more likely that we are in one of the far more numerous simulations, than that we are in the singular and unique real world. (In that sort of world, moreover, there really would be a "Creator", or multiple such figures.)

You can choose not to believe in such things, and it's hard to imagine how one lives if they are taken seriously, but it is a philosophical choice to ignore them.
 
Mod Note:

If I didn't exist would the truth cease to be the truth.

...
I'm sure they see it, so what.

...
By your posts you obviously suffer from solipsism syndrome.

Let's leave the tongue in cheek comments at the door yes?




I totally agree with that.

As I'm sure you're aware geeser, the reference was to you, and not Signal.

You are the one claiming that, somehow, you have access to some sort of "objective method" that can establish "truth", which flies directly in the face of the entire history of philosophy. As an individual, you are subject to the limitations of your perceptions, and as such, to an epistemologically subjective position.

Of course, none of what I've just said obtains if you happen to be using completely non-conventional definitions of "objective", "subjective" and "truth".... but as it stands...


You would do well to pay attention to Signal's astute criticisms.
Flippant dismissals will not serve you well in here.
 
I suggest you check the post that glaucon was replying too. See previous reply, above,
I use an objective methodology to ascertain truth, as I said earlier so I'm far from solipsistic.

the problem is that you are using philosophy to assert your (favoured) "objective" methodology .. .... I say "problem" because the moment you encounter mere opposition or criticism to your values, you retort "oh but that's just philosophy - I'm talking about reality." ... and I say "favoured" because regardless of one's take on objectivity, its obvious to any one who has come within ten feet of philosophy that there are various schools of thought that argue the point.

The critical point you seem to be failing to recognize constantly is that its philosophy that constructs, defends or critiques a precept about reality.
IOW its not that we are pushing "all/several philosophical schools of thought/claims of reality are equally valid". We are pushing that "all schools of thought/claims of reality establish their validity/defend themselves through the language of philosophy.

IOW rather than take the standard approach to a critique, you reject the means outright, which just makes your defense an exhibition of recalcitrance.
 
the problem is that you are using philosophy to assert your (favoured) "objective" methodology .. .... I say "problem" because the moment you encounter mere opposition or criticism to your values, you retort "oh but that's just philosophy - I'm talking about reality."

Ahh, my mistake then LG.
I thought you were attempting to broaden the issue.
mea culpa


IOW rather than take the standard approach to a critique, you reject the means outright, which just makes your defense an exhibition of recalcitrance.


Excellent point.
Comme toujours.
 
The problem is that you are making an assumption about "reality" that it is independently existing, but one can relax that assumption. What we think of as "reality" may indeed be independent of you or me or the human race, and yet still not be "real" as we commonly think of it.
If it is correct that reality is but an assumption. Ie purely subjective then it would cease to be for everyone when one person ceases to exist, as it was only subjectively real for them, then it must by default end when they end. I am an objectivist I believe knowledge is objective it is not created by the thoughts we have, but by the nature of truth/reality, for man's mind to discover, It is not relevant what we commonly think real is, it is mind-independent.
Pandaemoni said:
but that itself is a philosophical position that one must hold without evidence. That position, and its contrary, are both fundamentally unprovable.
Which is what I was saying to LG on the religion forum. when I stated the thread title. Else any subjective idea could be argued to be truth, it simply doesn't work that way.
Although I do think reality is mind-independent, regardless.

glaucon said:
Mod Note:lets leave the tongue in cheek comments at the door yes?
My apologies if you find it offensive am I misinterpreting what a solipsist is or solipsism syndrome, he is of the opinion that nothing is real is he not.
glaucon said:
As I'm sure you're aware geeser, the reference was to you, and not Signal.
Oh yes, However I can still agree with the sentiment cant I.
glaucon said:
You are the one claiming that, somehow, you have access to some sort of "objective method" that can establish "truth", which flies directly in the face of the entire history of philosophy. As an individual, you are subject to the limitations of your perceptions, and as such, to an epistemologically subjective position.
I believe knowledge is objective it is not created by the thoughts we have, but by the nature of truth/reality, for man's mind to discover. So maybe I do have an objective method that works for me, nobody has to agree with me if they don't wish too. But I'm sorry I can not see life though the eyes of a solipsist.
glaucon said:
You would do well to pay attention to Signal's astute criticisms.
Flippant dismissals will not serve you well in here.
Why should I, if they are against my position, I only came here because LG put up a thread to belittle me. This is my first venture into the philosophy forum.

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute" - Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand.
 
My apologies if you find it offensive am I misinterpreting what a solipsist is or solipsism syndrome, he is of the opinion that nothing is real is he not.

You can disagree without such flippant responses.

In any case, one need not hold that "nothing is real" while being a solipsist.
I'm afraid you've misunderstood solipsism.


Philosophy Pages - Dictionary:


solipsism

Belief that only I myself and my own experiences are real, while anything else—a physical object or another person—is nothing more than an object of my consciousness. As a philosophical position, solipsism is usually the unintended consequence of an over-emphasis on the reliability of internal mental states, which provide no evidence for the existence of external referents.

See also:

IEP - Solipsism:



I believe knowledge is objective it is not created by the thoughts we have, but by the nature of truth/reality, for man's mind to discover.

But it is that very belief that is being called into question (and a rare one at that).
Moreover, if you believe such a notion (which, interestingly, is solipsistic), then it cannot be "objective", as it is your "belief."

So maybe I do have an objective method that works for me, nobody has to agree with me if they don't wish too.


"Objective method that works for me" is a contradiction.


Why should I, if they are against my position, I only came here because LG put up a thread to belittle me. This is my first venture into the philosophy forum.


Because you are required to do so in any intelligent dialectic.
Particularly in here.
I wasn't aware of the 'intention' of the thread (although, to be sure, I would be very careful of assuming that such is the case..).

In any case, I'm sure you can handle the topic without responding in kind.. you certainly seem intelligent enough.

Welcome here.
 
Geeser,

What an individual perceives and how the individual is affected, that is what reality is nothing else can be called a reality. Additionally philosophy is used to study reality not to prove it.
 
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In any case, one need not hold that "nothing is real" while being a solipsist.
I'm afraid you've misunderstood solipsism.

Philosophy Pages - Dictionary:


solipsism

Belief that only I myself and my own experiences are real, while anything else—a physical object or another person—is nothing more than an object of my consciousness. As a philosophical position, solipsism is usually the unintended consequence of an over-emphasis on the reliability of internal mental states, which provide no evidence for the existence of external referents.
I don't think so, My Emphasis
glaucon said:
But it is that very belief that is being called into question (and a rare one at that).
Is it, there seems to be a lot of objectivist's about.

Big Chiller said:
What an individual perceives and how the individual is affected, that is what reality is nothing else can be called a reality.
You can use whatever label you wish, even none, but a reality of sorts is mind-independent, thus whether we are here or not a reality of sorts will continue, however we wont know about it. Did a reality of sorts only start to exist at man's emergence, no! it was here all along.
Big Chiller said:
Additionally philosophy is used to study reality not to prove it.
Exactly, if only LG could see that.
 
If it is correct that reality is but an assumption. Ie purely subjective then it would cease to be for everyone when one person ceases to exist, as it was only subjectively real for them, then it must by default end when they end.

I disagree, though we could be missing each other due to semantics. The opposite of "real" is not "subjective". If my wife and I are in love, that is subjective, but not a fiction. If I pass away, I would hope that the shared love would still exis for a time, in her mind.

More importantly though, if the universe exists only so long as a program on a computer continues running, then that universe is not "real", but a simulation. That we are not aware it is a simulation does not render it real, and that it continues after we depart the scene likewise does not. The existence of the universe in that case is an illusion, and we simulated inhabitants of the simulated universe would not be able to pierce that illusion and see the reality...but yet at least as I understand it, that the universe is a mere simulation would be (unattainable, from our perspective) objective truth of our existence.
 
So are you saying that without philosophy reality ceases?
If you look at the question I was responding to, you will see what I was referring to. I don't see how you drew the conclusion implicit in the question.

or is reality/existence there anyway, and yes any discussion of this nature can be deemed a philosophical one, but I not asking you to prove reality, or philosophise over it, am I. I'm asking you to either agree or disagree that it's there regardless.
First of all your quotes had to do with proving reality. Second I don't think it is clear what the words rock or reality are referring to.
Solipsism tends to agree with your don't know, I myself however don't suffer that way as I try not to use a subjective methodology to ascertain truth.
So you don't use your senses? Memory? How do you decide you have evaluated something enough? correctly? And then how do you evaluate these evaluative processes? Objectively? I truly doubt it.

And yes, you are clearly 'doing philosophy' here. Making a case, striving to be logical and coherent and it still seems to me you are trying to use a philosophical process to demonstrate an objective point.

You are not doing empirical research. You are arguing a case and seem to think it can show the truth. If you believe this can happen, then you believe that philosophy can demonstrate objective truths. Thus creating a counter example. If you do not believe you can, in this way, demonstrate something objective, what are you doing?
 
My apologies if you find it offensive am I misinterpreting what a solipsist is or solipsism syndrome, he is of the opinion that nothing is real is he not.
I do not think this is the case. I do not think this is the opinion.
 
geezer said:
geezer said:
Also does a rock(label it whatever way you wish)cease being a rock if I don't exist. Does reality stop being reality, simply because I'm not there, If I cease to exist, does reality continue for you.
That is a different issue from the sentences quoted in the OP. It depends how we define reality and rock and really....I don't know.
So are you saying that without philosophy reality ceases?
If you look at the question I was responding to, you will see what I was referring to. I don't see how you drew the conclusion implicit in the question.
maybe because you were indecisive. Emphasis mine
Doreen said:
First of all your quotes had to do with proving reality. Second I don't think it is clear what the words rock or reality are referring to.
There not referring to anything you can label them as you wish. My original argument with LG was that philosophy is a subjective discipline, that hasn't changed, and given all the posts in this thread telling me that we are all solipsists, I been proven right you can't prove reality with philosophy.
Doreen said:
So you don't use your senses? Memory? How do you decide you have evaluated something enough? correctly? And then how do you evaluate these evaluative processes? Objectively? I truly doubt it.
What I have learnt via sensory input, and from others sensory input, gives me a basis of objective knowledge, to evaluate a given problem. IOW the object of thought can be evaluated. rather than the subject.
Doreen said:
And yes, you are clearly 'doing philosophy' here. Making a case, striving to be logical and coherent and it still seems to me you are trying to use a philosophical process to demonstrate an objective point.
If when ever I use my mind, you all believe I'm using philosophy, then ok. So literally everybody is a philosopher.
 
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