Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
You already answered it. I was asking what it is the protestors were asking their government to do.
Zionist piracy
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You already answered it. I was asking what it is the protestors were asking their government to do.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
By the way Ejderha, do you think that Turkey believes that if it defends Israel it has a better chance of reaching EU membership? It may not have anything to do with anything but I am curious if it plays any role at all.
Hi Bells
how r u?
Yes well as i have said the biggest bunch of anti-semites are the people in the isreali governement!!
Bells
Staff member
Ah, but what are they reacting to though?
That's my point. Israel will react to what they are hearing in the media.. So how unbiased do you think Israel is going to be in giving its account for the events, when you take the above into consideration?
If Sam is able to find articles about how day to day Israelis are reacting to this, then I would be very interested to read it. But some opinion pieces from Israel isn't being overly flattering to Israel's actions.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gaza-flotilla-drives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-failure-any-way-you-slice-it-1.293446
Also its the media blackouts which concern me which go hand in hand with most if not all isreali operations!!!
Why always a media blackout i wonder!!???
Why always a media blackout i wonder!!???
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
A much more severe criticism than you would find in a US paper.
Its hard to get info on the ground in Israel. Ayman Mohyeldin [AJE] is based in Jerusalem but even he has not reported on what Israelis are saying.
The only info available is of Israeli Arabs:
[/QUOTE]
I will ask some Israeli expats I know, usually Israel's Channel 10 is a good source of what the public is being fed. But its in Hebrew, which I am still in the [slow] process of learning
I just looked at Noam Sheizaf's blog, he has a round up of the local media:
http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=2838
Haaretz is like The Nation, its not widely read in Israel due to its "extremist" views. Yedioth Ahranoth, Hebrew version, is probably the most widely read paper and its online English version Ynet, is not representative of the Hebrew one. Plus not all their articles are available online.
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Actually that's pretty surprising to me. I didn't know or even heard anything about this. So, the answer is no.
But there is something important about this Türkiye and EU bussiness. Almost 60% of Türkiye is against the attempts of EU membership. Probably already went up. It's something started decades ago and I find it funny, that it still goes on. Old habits die hard?
Personally, I am strongly against it. We are already treated as easily expendable border material as it is. We are Anatolians, not Europeans and we don't want to be. So, I am glad 72 million muslim Türks intimidate EU,lol.
Now, I know that as much as it's embarrasing for them, -but with all respect when you look from outside that is the case- Europeans do not/can't acknowledge the possible fact that any other country might not want to be a part of their club. But they also want a solid bridge between them and Middle East. After all, we are the vacation site for them, where they can behave exactly the way they want. Etc...
PS My point of view can be misleading to a point. I am not a muslim and do not live in a traditional community of the country.
Here is some Israeli reaction:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137801
There is a video on the page but I cannot view it
But I found some pics here:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137801
There is a video on the page but I cannot view it
But I found some pics here:
Erdoğan:
"...Turkey's friendship is as strong as its animosity..."
What does this mean? Sigh.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897404,00.html
"...Turkey's friendship is as strong as its animosity..."
What does this mean? Sigh.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897404,00.html
Then you believe that it's also the fault of the organizers? First you claimed indiscriminate spraying of fire into civilians, but now it's all a byproduct of self defense.
Keep moving those goal posts, Bells.
Evidently not, according to the video. Then again, someone did seemingly throw a molotov.
I have to wonder about this whole frothing and getting Jew hating lynch mob together and if this was premeditaded if all they had to defend themselves with was plastic deck chairs and a couple of iron pipes.
Then you should take it up with reality and al Jazeera.
So you have seen it, yet still downplay their weapons and tactics. That's about par for your reasonability.
Bells
Staff member
Not at all. If I were on that boat, I'd have been scrounging for anything I could get my hands on to protect myself. Or does that little fact escape you?
Before all communication was jammed and stopped, there were reports that they had opened fire before they stormed those ships. Now, tell me, you're on an aid ship and you see men aggressively harassing you and then preparing to storm your ship, what the hell do you do? I don't fault those people for defending themselves.
"Someone". We don't know yet since we have only been allowed to view the videos supplied by the Israeli Government. The journalists who were on the boat have had all of their equipment and film confiscated. No one has had a chance to see them or speak to any of the 600+ passengers in that they are barred from having contact with the outside world. It is highly possible, if not probable, that any footage captured by the journalists on those ships will be destroyed or kept by the IDF and will never see the light of day.
Reality, Geoff, is that there were Israeli Jews on those ships, as well as a holocaust survivor. Who have been detained by Israel. That is the reality. The reality is that you're more upset that they defended themselves against men armed with guns who stormed their ships.
Tactics? They were stormed by armed combat troops. As I said above, in their position, I'd have been scrounging around for whatever I could get my hands on to defend myself and resist. You'll have to excuse me if I am not you and would not bend over and offer to kiss their backsides.
Is it possible for a country to have a mental illness?
Israel acts like one.
Surrounded by bitter enemies, they board a ship, by force, which carries a Turkish flag.
Turkey, one of their only allies in the region.
It's almost as though they wanted to drive away the last of their friends so they could say "See. Everyone hates us. We told you so"
Israel acts like one.
Surrounded by bitter enemies, they board a ship, by force, which carries a Turkish flag.
Turkey, one of their only allies in the region.
It's almost as though they wanted to drive away the last of their friends so they could say "See. Everyone hates us. We told you so"
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Speaking of escapes, did you have a chance to review those blazing Israeli machineguns on the rapellers? I'm still having a tough time seeing them.
"Aggressively harassing": interesting turn of phrase. I've heard the reports of opening fire, but still don't know whether it was actual firing on the vessels or warning shots. I know you don't fault them for defending themselves, and neither would I; but do you fault them for the obvious set-up? Do you fault the Israelis for defending themselves? Even al Jazeera comprehends this, Bells: but you dodge these points desperately. I recall you used to make a big deal out of purported avoidance, but that seems to have gone by the wayside in this discussion.
Perhaps you might use a moment of reflection to realize that I am spreading the blame around into the proper quarters (everyone, frankly) rather than offering a blanket accusation. Yet, I know this point will be either i) ignored or ii) scorned.
"
Then it should be relatively easy to review those films and decide what happened during the boarding, and the day prior. Premeditation, councillor. Look it up.
Yes: the reality is also that you seem to think this means something to me, the fact that Israeli Jews were on the ships. Why?
That would be the falsity. The reality is that they mobbed the rappellers.
Or maybe attending "singalongs"; who knows, since you continually demean the point and detract from the argument?
In this climate, I doubt it, but it's possible.
What people have to realize is that the collision of the two sides on the ships was premeditation by each side. Israeli paranoia (and/or gall) and Protestor paranoia (and/or gall).
Bells
Staff member
Which some have commented on already with some very interesting commentary of where it could lead:
But something interesting has happened.. Things are just going to get worse for Israel as this drags on..
Information is starting to emerge.. One has to wonder how much worse this could get:
And if Israel couldn't look like a bigger horses behind at the moment...
And there it goes.. It just hit the fan.
Bells
Staff member
Hmmmm..
I don't blame those people one bit. I'd have been looking around for anything I could get as soon as I saw or heard those helicopters close in above that deck. Granted, you might fall to your knees and think your messiah had come, but not everyone is like you Geoff.
So the people on those boats are at fault for Israel being god damn stupid for putting itself in this position? Righteo.
I have to ask, can Israel do no wrong in your eyes? I mean, is there anything they might do that you would constitute as being bad or immoral? I am curious. Because you see, the world has condemned them fully for what they have done. You? You carry on about anti Jewish songs and rant about how those peace activists actually tried to defend themselves against armed men who stormed their ships.
You're not spreading the blame. You're excusing and justifying. You basically think that those activists were wrong to defend themselves against an armed invasion in waters they were legally entitled to be in. You are blaming them for Israel's stupidity and violence. You're so obsessed about some songs that you're missing the entire point. Whether songs were sung or not. The point is that Israel acted illegally in storming those ships and killing upwards of 10 people. They have acted illegally by detaining all of the passengers and crew and denying them even consular access. They have acted illegally by confiscating the property of independent journalists who were on the flotillas.. They have acted illegally and continue to do so. Now, while you may keep wringing those little hands of yours about some anti-jewish songs that may have been sung in the day prior as they were buzzed by the IDF, those songs does not excuse being stormed and shot at with live fire rounds from an invading force. Now, again, you seem to have issues with people defendind themselves when confronted with an invasion of a combat force with guns raised and that's just you. Most people would have tried to defend themselves and would grab whatever they could to do so.
You have gone on and on about premeditation. If those passengers really were premeditating their supposed attack (they get boarded illegally and apparently they are the attackers in Geoff's twisted little world), I find it astounding that all they had on hand to "attack" (in your opinion) was a couple of iron pipes, a sling shot and some marbles and plastic chairs and a possible knife or two. Wow.. that's some premeditation there.
What it shows is a bunch of desperate people, men and women, who appear to have simply grabbed what they could to defend those ships, which they were well within their rights to do.. something with again, keeps on escaping you. Unlike you, they don't view Israelis storming their ships with guns and other weapons as the second coming of the Messiah.
What part of Israel confiscating all the footage from the journalists did you not quite understand? It has been linked several times in this thread already. Can you not read?
The greater majority of those passengers have been detained and are not even allowed to speak to their families or consular officials who are desperately trying to determine their safety. Or did that simple little fact escape you? We don't even know the names or the exact number of the dead, because Israel has refused to release the information.. Do you get that yet?
I am well aware of premeditation, sir, but I would suggest you look up self defense and illegal storming of a foreign vessel.
Because in Geoff's world, those activists were all Jew hating people intent on apparently attacking Jews.. Which has been shown, even from the videos, that they were only defending themselves when attacked by the Israeli forces. There were people from all religions and walks of life on those ships, including a holocaust survivor. Now, to Israel, that survivor is a criminal and has been detained like a criminal. To the Palestinian, that holocaust survivor has become a hero. Doesn't that tell you something about this whole sorry saga?
Who were illegally storming their ships.
What part of that reality do you not quite grasp?
What? Are you suggesting that because those rappellers were Jewish, they should not have done anything to them? Is that what's bugging you? That they attacked armed Jewish men who illegally stormed their boats and fired live rounds?
No. What I find demeaning is that you are placing more emphasis on songs than you are on Israel illegally storming ships and killing people and then detaining the survivors without letting them have access to consular officials or even allow them to contact their families.. And that's just for starters.
Not far removed from this:
That would be idiotic. The ships were merely boarded, no fighting occurred until some morons decided they would fight off the Israeli military with pipes and chains.
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