Why is the USA pussy whipped by Israel?

These events were preceeded by mass murders of Jews by Arabs. Harsh feelings were not completely unpredictable. You act like this was some cold blooded plan to steal Arab land, which is a lie. Some Arabs had certain ideological leanings that influenced them to force Jews to leave, so I call it a civil war. In fact before there was a state, there was no military discipline, many people acted on their own.
 
Ultimately, this whole debate is futile, and it keeps going around in circles in every forum where I see it. If you don't have a basic set of facts to agree upon, there's nothing to debate. Showing photos of Arafat's uncle, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem cozying up to Hitler is the most factual thing I can present, beyond that anyone can make whatever claims they want.

Let the powers that be sort it out, they're the ones with full access to all the facts, which none of us have. To have a proper debate on this subject here on this forum, we'd have to treat it like a proper legal dispute in court, with DNA evidence and all the rest, and that's too painful and tedious for any of us to bother with. This forum is supposed to be for discussing positions pertaining to science, and I don't see how this debate fulfills such goals in any respect whatsoever.
 
spidergoat said:
Jewish immigration to Israel had been going on for a hundred years, they had a settled life and legitimately bought land. True WWII accelerated the process, but once there was a critical mass, they needed to form a real state. Apparently the Arabs never thought of doing that and made it difficult. There was a war and the Arabs lost, so they have no claim to anything seized in war. Israel actually had much more land, which they gave back. Thousands of years of Arab occupation doesn't mean anything if you try to kill me.
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the arabs did try and make a state. they made a deal with the british to that effect. why is it that you pro israel people have to be so fucking dishonest
 
S.A.M. said:
False, the original population of Jews was 7% and the British mandate of Palestine that the UN accorded to them was 55%, based on the condition that native Palestinians would have their rights respected.
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If you're talking about the 1947 partition plan, that was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs. So the UN proposed another plan, and another, offering the arabs more and more. Every single time, the arabs told the UN they would not accept an inch of land going to Israel- not 55%, not 33%, not 7%, not 0.001%. As their well known quote says, "there's plenty of room for the Jews at the bottom of the sea". The final UN offer was for the Jews to build a state exclusively in territories under their sovereign control. Again the Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected, and that's when Israel declared independence and the arab armies attacked.

Oh and your numbers are wrong- the population of pre-1948 Israel/Palestine was 33% jewish. The jewish immigrants settled on land that had been purchased from arabs on their behalf, and the British still had the gall to turn back tens thousands of jewish immigrants (in the middle of the holocaust) to these purchased lands while openly admitting arabs from neighbouring countries. The British also placed major restrictions on how much land the jews could buy, because the arab landowners were only too eager to sell.
 
pjdude1219 said:
the arabs did try and make a state. they made a deal with the british to that effect. why is it that you pro israel people have to be so fucking dishonest
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The Palestinians had the opportunity to take something like a 93% cut of the land now called Israel, and they rejected it, or at least their leaders did. If the Palestinians actually were willing to accept this offer, then they should be mad at the leaders who rejected it. Why does one have to be "Pro-Israel" in order to support it's right to exist? Am I pro-Iran because I support Iran's right to exist? Am I pro-Sudan because I support Sudan's right to exist?
 
CptBork said:
The Palestinians had the opportunity to take something like a 93% cut of the land now called Israel, and they rejected it, or at least their leaders did. If the Palestinians actually were willing to accept this offer, then they should be mad at the leaders who rejected it. Why does one have to be "Pro-Israel" in order to support it's right to exist? Am I pro-Iran because I support Iran's right to exist? Am I pro-Sudan because I support Sudan's right to exist?
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still being dishonest i see it was no where near 93% about have the land promised for the palestinian state went to the creation of Israel
 
pjdude1219 said:
still being dishonest i see it was no where near 93% about have the land promised for the palestinian state went to the creation of Israel
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You haven't read about all the subsequent proposals the jews agreed to after the arabs rejected the original partition plan. What makes you the arbiter of fact and honesty?
 
spidergoat said:
These events were preceeded by mass murders of Jews by Arabs. Harsh feelings were not completely unpredictable. You act like this was some cold blooded plan to steal Arab land, which is a lie. Some Arabs had certain ideological leanings that influenced them to force Jews to leave, so I call it a civil war. In fact before there was a state, there was no military discipline, many people acted on their own.
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It was a cold blooded plan to steal the land. Everything was preceded by the Balfour declaration in 1917. What was that? Even the King Crane Commission report which polled the people in the Levant, said very clearly, in 1919

Zionists anticipated "a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants to Palestine"
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King-Crane_Commission

The zionists always wanted to remove the natives from the land.
 
spidergoat said:
No they rejected partition and attacked to prevent it.
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um not what i was talking about. i was talking about the agreement with the british to fight for the allies and get their own state in return. something that predated the partition.
 
Here's something for you to look up, since you profess how you like to research both sides of the story: Type Azzam Pasha into Google and look at all the dandy quotes from him about how he would not allow the jews to have a single square inch of the land, purchased or not. He even openly admitted the jews had presented a reasonable case, but they would have to fight for their lives regardless. I'd copy and paste some of his quotes, but what's the point, there are so many of them. In case you're wondering who Azzam Pasha was, he was the Secretary General of the Arab League at the time and head of their negotiations team.

Your hero Karl Marx himself, as a journalist on assignment for the New York Daily Tribune in the 1850's, said more than 66% of Jerusalem (then a large town of roughly 60 000) was inhabited by jews. Mark Twain noted on his journeys to Israel/Palestine that at the time, hardly anyone at all lived there, arab or jew, period. Winston Churchill in 1939 remarked about the staggering rate at which arabs were immigrating into Palestine at the time, faster than the jewish population was growing around the entire world!

This can all be researched and independently verified, so there's no point in dismissing it as more long-nosed jewish lies.
 
Who cares what Azzam Pasha said? The Jews murdered or drove out the natives.

Why does a 2000 year old history give any Jew in the world a right to occupy any land in Palestine?

What makes Jews so special to give them rights no one else in the world can claim?
 
CptBork said:
Here's something for you to look up, since you profess how you like to research both sides of the story: Type Azzam Pasha into Google and look at all the dandy quotes from him about how he would not allow the jews to have a single square inch of the land, purchased or not. He even openly admitted the jews had presented a reasonable case, but they would have to fight for their lives regardless. I'd copy and paste some of his quotes, but what's the point, there are so many of them. In case you're wondering who Azzam Pasha was, he was the Secretary General of the Arab League at the time and head of their negotiations team.

Your hero Karl Marx himself, as a journalist on assignment for the New York Daily Tribune in the 1850's, said more than 66% of Jerusalem (then a large town of roughly 60 000) was inhabited by jews. Mark Twain noted on his journeys to Israel/Palestine that at the time, hardly anyone at all lived there, arab or jew, period. Winston Churchill in 1939 remarked about the staggering rate at which arabs were immigrating into Palestine at the time, faster than the jewish population was growing around the entire world!

This can all be researched and independently verified, so there's no point in dismissing it as more long-nosed jewish lies.
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so your presenting facts that i admit are facts as proof i don't admit the facts.
 
S.A.M. said:
Who cares what Azzam Pasha said?
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Anyone who cares about the actual facts of what did and did not happen, that's who.

S.A.M. said:
The Jews murdered or drove out the natives.
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Running around in circles yet again. The arab armies invaded the jewish territories, not the other way around. No jewish armies crossed into Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq or any of the other neighbouring states during or prior to that war. You are probably well aware of all the various stated reasons why so many arabs left, and you've probably heard about many of the major jewish efforts to convince arabs to stay in Israel and live with them, so if you want to dismiss the jewish side of the story, then you need to find some pretty strong, indisputable evidence to support you. You won't find it on the net.

S.A.M. said:
Why does a 2000 year old history give any Jew in the world a right to occupy any land in Palestine?
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It doesn't. Nor does Israel require this ancient history, DNA evidence etc. to support it's right to exist, because in today's world it's irrelevant. Just like we don't turn the clock 500 years back on Kosovo, even though it was stolen from the Serbs. Just like we don't kick the Turks out of Istanbul or any of their other European holdings, which they blatantly stole a long time ago.

S.A.M. said:
What makes Jews so special to give them rights no one else in the world can claim?
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What makes muslims so special that only muslims can be citizens in so many middle east countries? If you're not muslim yourself, have you ever tried to visit Mecca? Or have you ever tried to apply for Jordanian citizenship?
 
CptBork said:
Anyone who cares about the actual facts of what did and did not happen, that's who.



Running around in circles yet again. The arab armies invaded the jewish territories, not the other way around. No jewish armies crossed into Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq or any of the other neighbouring states during or prior to that war. You are probably well aware of all the various stated reasons why so many arabs left, and you've probably heard about many of the major jewish efforts to convince arabs to stay in Israel and live with them, so if you want to dismiss the jewish side of the story, then you need to find some pretty strong, indisputable evidence to support you. You won't find it on the net.



It doesn't. Nor does Israel require this ancient history, DNA evidence etc. to support it's right to exist, because in today's world it's irrelevant. Just like we don't turn the clock 500 years back on Kosovo, even though it was stolen from the Serbs. Just like we don't kick the Turks out of Istanbul or any of their other European holdings, which they blatantly stole a long time ago.



What makes muslims so special that only muslims can be citizens in so many middle east countries? If you're not muslim yourself, have you ever tried to visit Mecca? Or have you ever tried to apply for Jordanian citizenship?
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You did not answer my question.

Why does any Jew born in the world have a right, by his religion, to occupy Palestinian lands? Tell me why a Palestinian has to live as a refugee while a Jew can walk in and take his home and land.


so if you want to dismiss the jewish side of the story,
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What is the Jewish side of the story? What is their right here?
 
What makes muslims so special that only muslims can be citizens in so many middle east countries? If you're not muslim yourself, have you ever tried to visit Mecca? Or have you ever tried to apply for Jordanian citizenship?
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That is a good point. I really want to stay out of this but that is a point worth examining.

SAM, is it safe to say that there is no way that Jews could be able to return to their ancestral homeland without having their own little country?

Even before 1948 i cannot see Jewish people, or any non-natives emigrating to Egypt or Jordan or anywhere else in the ME.

And you have to admit that the area (Israel) plays an enormous part in Jewish history. I am neutral btw but 60 years is a long time to be fighting.
 
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