make sense man
Why is the USA pussy whipped by Israel?
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
make sense man
How is a 2000 year old historical place an ancestral land that people return to? For which people on earth is this recognised besides Jews? Why 2000? Why not 4000 and they go to Egypt? Why not 1000 and they go to Russia? And why does it have to be a state that treats present inhabitants as foreigners while treating foreigners as inhabitants, based on religion?
Are the people living in Mecca Russians or Ethiopians? Are the people living in Jordan Chinese? Did they come to these places after a few thousand years holiday?
No jew has the right to occupy Palestinian lands. The dispute is over what constitutes Palestinian land. As for jewish immigration to Israel, they can let in whoever they want. They also have a program for accepting Palestinians into their country to be reunited with arab families who already hold Israeli citizenship. The rules aren't perfect, and they may indeed be seen as racist, but every country has the sovereign right to determine their own immigration policy. If America decided, for instance, that Slovakians didn't fit in with their own culture and aspirations, they would have every right to refuse Slovakian immigration.
You already know the jewish side of the story. Their side of the story is that many of the Palestinians left of their own accord. There were certain incidents such as Deir Yassin that can be looked at as legitimate examples of ethnic cleansing (roughly 120 arabs killed in that incident, the most cited example of a jewish massacre). It has to be noted however that there were equally grievous massacres committed by the Palestinians and other arabs during and prior to the War of Independence.
On the whole however, it is well known that the arab armies ordered and encouraged the Palestinians to leave, so the whole country could be scorched and cleansed of its jewish population. In addition, arab radio and news broadcasts vastly exagerrated the scale of the fighting and the jewish massacres, frightening hundreds of thousands of arabs into fleeing. The originators of these radio and news reports admitted after the war that it was the Arabs' "greatest mistake". They were trying to incite the Palestinians to fight, instead they frightened them into flight.
It's also noted that the jews made many efforts to encourage arabs to stay behind and partner in the new Israeli state. That's why there's more than 1million arab citizens (and growing) in Israel today.
That's the jewish Israeli side of the story, which is what you asked for, so take it for what it's worth.
um i see one problem with that. when war breaks out people tend to get the fuck out of the area
Nope, I want to know why the Jews who immigrated from Europe in 1948 have a right to form a state on Palestinian lands based on 2000 year old history.
Sorry, false, see post earlier for how the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed. The Zionist lies of Palestinians leaving on their own accord has been demolished by examination of the Haganah records.
The Palestinians were expelled before any army came in. Again see the Haganah sources explored in detail (names, numbers and dates) for details.
Yeah zionist lies, as usual, ironically demolished by their own records.
I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe for details on the creation of Israel.
Or this extract from Ben Morris' study of declassified IDF documents
”
References:
Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948," Middle Eastern Studies (London), January 1986, pp. 5-19. An excerpt (pp. 5, 6-7, 9-10, 14, 18)
That's the whole point, that's why the jews say so many Palestinians left- war broke out, and they bolted. The vast majority of sources agree that the arabs were the ones to start the war, after Israel declared independence. So the chips fell where they did- everyone expected the arabs to win, including the Palestinians who fled. Even most jews thought they were done for, but they just barely held on.
Lies, the Palestinians were driven out by terrorism before a single Arab army came in.
All confirmed by Israeli records at the time. See my previous post
SAM, if you remove all Chinese people from China dont you think that they will want to return to China. That is where their history is.
Irish people? Remove them from Ireland and they will always want to return home.
So you will say, 'well the Palestinians were there' but it is real easy for them to move about the region and neighbouring countries being that they are Muslim. I know how extremely sensitive this isuue is and dont want to throw wood on any fires. IOW, perhaps it is none of my business.
The Mongols who conquered the Middle East and ruled over it 800 years ago are of Chinese Mongolian origin. Should they kick out the present Chinese and occupy their lands? The Turks who were the Ottomans are also of East Asian origin. Should they go kick out the people occupying their land 1000 years hence and take that land? The Romans were in Palestine too and had England and Spain 2000 years ago. Do they as present day Italians, get to kick out the English and Spanish people?
irrelevant during a war almost all civilians will leave the war zone. i don't see why the palestinians should be punished for doing the logical thing. in fact IMO it is bigoted to do so
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
[Ben] Morris attributed the flight of the Palestinians — called al-naqba, or "the catastrophe," by Arabs — to a mixture of causes. Some fled under direct attack. Some left in panic because they feared an attack. And some followed orders from Palestinian authorities.
Morris stated that "the Palestinian refugee problem was born of war, not by design, Jewish or Arab." Morris also stressed that Palestinian flight ultimately resulted from the war launched in 1947 by Palestinians themselves, followed on May 15, 1948, by the attack on Israel by Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Transjordan...
...Over the years, Morris has largely stuck to his scholarly positions, though some have evolved, along with his personal politics. In a 2001 essay, Morris said he'd come to feel that a "virtual consensus" grew among leaders of the Yishuv, the Jewish community of pre-war Palestine, in support of a transfer of peoples to solve the Arab-Jewish problem — a notion endorsed by Britain's 1937 Peel Commission report. He now believes, based on further archival research, that Israeli commanders, witnessing growing Palestinian flight in late 1948, decided to encourage it, with Ben-Gurion's connivance. He still rejects the idea that "any overall expulsory policy decision was taken by the Yishuv's executive bodies … in the course of the 1948 war."
In another widening of his lens, Morris reminds readers that after the 1948 war began, some "five to six hundred thousand Jews who lived in the Arab world emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled from their native countries," usually with their property confiscated. The world forgets those refugees, he points out, because Israel and Western countries took them in, while Arab countries forced their fellow Muslims to remain refugees.
http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i36/36b00601.htm
Morris stated that "the Palestinian refugee problem was born of war, not by design, Jewish or Arab." Morris also stressed that Palestinian flight ultimately resulted from the war launched in 1947 by Palestinians themselves, followed on May 15, 1948, by the attack on Israel by Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Transjordan...
...Over the years, Morris has largely stuck to his scholarly positions, though some have evolved, along with his personal politics. In a 2001 essay, Morris said he'd come to feel that a "virtual consensus" grew among leaders of the Yishuv, the Jewish community of pre-war Palestine, in support of a transfer of peoples to solve the Arab-Jewish problem — a notion endorsed by Britain's 1937 Peel Commission report. He now believes, based on further archival research, that Israeli commanders, witnessing growing Palestinian flight in late 1948, decided to encourage it, with Ben-Gurion's connivance. He still rejects the idea that "any overall expulsory policy decision was taken by the Yishuv's executive bodies … in the course of the 1948 war."
In another widening of his lens, Morris reminds readers that after the 1948 war began, some "five to six hundred thousand Jews who lived in the Arab world emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled from their native countries," usually with their property confiscated. The world forgets those refugees, he points out, because Israel and Western countries took them in, while Arab countries forced their fellow Muslims to remain refugees.
http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i36/36b00601.htm
Does he deny that 70% of the Arab exodus was due to violence by the Jews, with the rest fleeing in fear? All before any Arab army came in?
Um SAM?
All these groups of people you mention have their own countries though.
Nope they don't. They are spread out all over the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, ethnically speaking.
They didn't. The state was already formed by those who had already been living there prior to the arrival of these immigrants.
All I see your source talking about is how arabs fled in the face of Israeli military actions, i.e. pushing arab armies out of the area. I'd like to see further context from the original document to show that indeed it was intended to drive the Palestinians out by force, and that they were to be massacred if they chose to stay behind. If you read the whole document, I doubt you'll find this context. It's like how people take select quotes from the Quran to damn all of islam, even if the context is in hot dispute.
Here's a quote from Benny Morris, the source of your claims, about other misappropriations of his work:
I wonder what he'd have to say about you?
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
Of course. I mean you can't put a percentage on it. Certainly much of the Jewish reaction was a result of Arab violence.
Nope it wasn't. There is no evidence of any violence against Jews during the nakba. No records in the Haganah either.
with out outside jewish populations coming in no majority. a minority in a region as small as palestine don't get to override the wishes of the majority for self-determanation
sadly the blatant anti-muslim and anti arab people like you are still here