Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yet another example of the compound functional value provided by the microtubule and related filamental networks and functions.

    Microtubule-Based Mitochondrial Dynamics as a Valuable Therapeutic Target in Cancer
    1. Introduction

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    Figure 1
    Microtubule-dependent mitochondrial dynamics: Through the balance between fusion/fission and biogenesis/mitophagy, mitochondrial dynamics represent a central process in the bioenergetic adaptation and metabolic plasticity of cancer cells. The balance between biogenesis and mitophagy regulates the number of mitochondria and their quality. The fusion process helps to increase mitochondrial metabolism and to limit mitophagy and apoptosis, while the fission process allows the spatial redistribution of mitochondria in areas of the cell with greater energy and metabolic needs, favoring cell spreading and metastases.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8616325/
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This article on the self-correcting abilities of microtubules.

    Abstract
    Synopsis


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    more.....
    https://www.embopress.org/doi/abs/10.15252/embj.2022111631
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This conversation is a must for anyone interested in "conscious intelligence"
    ()
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Which brings up the question if microtubules in external plant root systems have similar functions to microtubules in internal neural systems of surface organisms. Are plant roots a form of pseudopodia, walking vertically through the soil?
    ==========================

    Microtubules in Purkinje cells may be the timekeepers in the brain.

    Internal Clocks, mGluR7 and Microtubules: A Primer for the Molecular Encoding of Target Durations in Cerebellar Purkinje Cells and Striatal Medium Spiny Neurons

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    S. Aryana Yousefzadeh1,

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    Germund Hesslow2,

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    Gleb P. Shumyatsky3 and

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    Warren H. Meck1*
    • 1Department of Psychology and Neuroscience, Duke University, Durham, NC, United States
    • 2Department of Experimental Medical Science, Lund University, Lund, Sweden
    • 3Department of Genetics, Rutgers University, Piscataway, NJ, United States
    more..... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnmol.2019.00321/full
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    To add some additional perspective.

    What makes microtubules the only candidate for the job is the fact that they do the dynamic processing of data and create the “action potentials” that cause the dynamics in living organisms, which start with the cilia and flagella providing motility in single-celled organisms like the Paramecium and transport all sensory data to the brain for cognitive processing in brained organisms.

    We keep talking about “small” and inconsequential because microtubules are ~ 20 nm.
    Allow me to put this in proper perspective.

    Transmitting fibers in the brain: Total length and distribution of lengths
    And this is just in the brain alone! If you want to add the total length of the body’s neural network then we end up with something like ;

    The nervous system: more than 90,000 miles of sensations!
    http://www.ikonet.com/en/visualdictionary/static/us/the_nervous_system

    And the actual components inside neurons doing the actual work are…microtubules, also called the data transport highways much like the copper wiring and switches in electric cables and data processors inside a computer or in a home's electrical wiring system that create electrical fields created by the system's dynamics.


    The Microtubule Cytoskeleton at the Synapse
    Julie Parato1,2 and Francesca Bartolini1,*

    Abstract

    more....https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8089059/

    There is no comparable common data processing system in all of Eukaryotic life. Why is this so hard to accept?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Because nothing you post actually talks about data processing in microtubules.

    Microtubules are structural elements of cells, from what I can gather. Your most recent quote describes them as providing "routes for transport throughout the cell and structural support..."

    You might as well claim that highways for cars are "data processors". Highways perform similar functions to microtubules, as far as I can tell.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Then you have not bothered to read any of the links I posted that describe in detail the electrochemical information microtubules process and why it is important that they act as variable resistors or potentiometers.

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    Why do we use these structures in electronics?


    This is what natural selection found sufficiently versatile in function to produce by the trillions throughout the body and connected by 1000 trillion dynamic synapses in the brain. I don't think the brain needs much structural support, but it is designed to process enormous numbers of electrochemical data. This seems obvious to me.

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    Contents
    much more...... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule#

    continued......
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    .......continued
    Seems to me you are hung up on the term "cytoskeleton", but how about "cytoplasm", how about "neurons", how about "synaptic connections"? How about intra-cellular data processing? How about inter-cellular data processing?

    Cellular Intelligence
    Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron

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    A mere structural building block?
    Yes and what would happen if there were no highways for cars to transport "data" like food and medicine and building materials?
    https://jonlieffmd.com/blog/are-microtubules-the-brain-of-the-neuron

    And if microtubules were not involved in brain function, why do defective microtubules produce brain disease?

    OTOH, we can also ask why is it that healthy microtubules produce healthy brain function?
    Are they instrumental in the emergence of consciousness itself? If not why not? Is there a better candidate?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2022
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Write4U:

    Perusing your last couple of posts, the thing that stands out to me the most is the repeated use of the word "structure" to describe the role that microtubules play. They are structural elements.

    There's hardly any mention at all of anything remotely resembling "data processing".

    Why do you keep talking around the issue rather than trying to address it?
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That is a false staement. The structural part is the least connected with data transfer. Why do you insist on bringing that up as the only function microtubules perform when I repeatedly cite quotations that the structural part is only one of the many functions MT perform?

    Is mitosis a structural function? Are neurons structural components? Is the brain subject to structural stresses?

    That is not true! There is abundant information about the other functions microtubules perform. You just refuse to look at it.
    Early on you accused me of cherry-picking microtubule functions. Now you are cherry-picking only the structural function about cytoskeleton as if that is represented by

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    instead of

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    It is you who keeps talking around the issue. I am not required to give an exact count and name of all the chemicals and electric "action potentials" that MTs generate in the course of their data processing.

    You just refuse to look at the data processing part and I don't know why you purposely keep avoiding MT functions pertinent to data processing and their role in brain function.

    I included the structural issue because it is one of the many roles MT play in the maintenance of homeostatis and growth function and pseudopodia.

    Maybe a simple search on "microtubules in the brain" here on "sciforum search " You'll get 10 reference pages with synopsis.

    Offhand, you may want to check out posts #2476 -2480, and actually read the quoted passages. I think there won't be much talk about "structure" in those posts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2022
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I have posted this before but it bears repeating.

    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations

    Abstract
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2#

    The problem is that invasive brain research on living subjects is extremely difficult. This is why we must rely on anesthesiologists like Hameroff to inform us of the latest "discoveries" of microtubule brain functions.
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Let's see. Some stuff about structure:
    Followed by a repeat of something that Write4U brought up earlier in the thread, which does not mention data processing:
    Electrical oscillations are not data processing. The conduction of electric signals along a structure is not data processing.

    Then we have another repeated quote from earlier in the thread:
    Again, electrical oscillations are not data processing. The rest is speculation: microtubules might conceivably do this and might conceivably have implications for that and might aid this or that. Might, might, might. Or might not.

    "Higher brain functions" do involve data processing, but there's no evidence here for any role for microtubules in that processing, other than perhaps as providing highways for "electrical oscillations" and "structures" that scaffold cells.
     
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    I came across a 2021 paper on nih.gov that reviews "the known theories discussing the essence of consciousness" and makes "an attempt to integrate these explanations" in "an interdisciplinary, integrated theoretical model" that is presented "in a manner intuitively understandable." (Różyk-Myrta, et al., 2021) The authors include the ‘Orch OR’ microtubule theory in their model and explain its place in the holistic concept of self. They attempt to provide viable mechanisms for many phenomena of consciousness; including ego, self awareness, imagery and qualia perceptions.

    The paper is well written, footnoted, sourced and linked, with an informative glossary included. I found the essay fascinating and consider it the best summation yet encountered of current theses addressing the hard problem of consciousness through biology and physics. It may assist readers in comprehending what is meant by microtubules performing data processing and potentially being the sine qua non of consciousness, albeit as only one of several interrelated components.

    Abstract

    "The known theories discussing the essence of consciousness have been recently updated. This prompts an attempt to integrate these explanations concerning several distinct components of the consciousness phenomenon such as the ego, and qualia perceptions. Therefore, it is useful to consider the latest publications on the ‘Orch OR’ and ‘cemi’ theories, which assume that quantum processing occurs in microtubules and that the brain’s endogenous electromagnetic field is important. The authors combine these explanations with their own theory describing the neural circuits realizing imagery. They try to present such an interdisciplinary, integrated theoretical model in a manner intuitively understandable to people with a typical medical education. In order to do this, they even refer to intuitively understandable metaphors. The authors maintain that an effective comprehension of consciousness is important for health care professionals because its disorders are frequent medical symptoms in emergencies, during general anesthesia and in the course of cognitive disorders in elderly people. The authors emphasize the current possibilities to verify these theses regarding the essence of consciousness thanks to the development of functional brain imaging methods—magnetoencephalography, transcranial magnetic stimulation—as well as clinical studies on the modification of perceptions and feelings by such techniques as mindfulness and the use of certain psychoactive substances, especially among people with self-awareness and identity disorders."

    Różyk-Myrta A, Brodziak A, Muc-Wierzgoń M., "Neural Circuits, Microtubule Processing, Brain's Electromagnetic Field-Components of Self-Awareness", National Library of Medicine: National Center for Biotechnology Information: Brain Sciences, 2021 Jul 25;11(8):984. doi: 10.3390/brainsci11080984. PMID: 34439603; PMCID: PMC8393322, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8393322/

    * My apologies if this source has previously been referenced in this thread, I performed a few searches using key passages from the article and did not turn up anything - although I semi-regularly follow this thread and do not recall seeing it, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't here already...
     
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  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This seems like two comprehensive illustrations of the mechanics of neural data processing.

    I'll just post the illustrations, but in the link they are accompanied by a sizable article with detailed explanations of the various functions.

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    Figure 2
    Axon structure and key mechanisms of axon growth. The image shows a neuron which extends an axon into a zone of an attractive factor. Parallel bundles of MTs fill the axon and splay in the growth cone (plus end-out polarity indicated for some MTs by encircled + and - signs). F-actin networks are prominent in growth cones, and scarce but highly organized into evenly spaced rings in axons. Close-ups illustrate the following molecular mechanisms contributing to axon growth: (1) MT plus end-associated factors (for example, EB1, CLASP, type 13 kinesins, XMAP215; blue ellipses) regulate elongation and shrinkage of MTs (blue arrows); (3) molecular motors (orange Y structures) mediate cargo transport; (2,4) the MT severing protein katanin (scissors) generates MT fragments which are moved anterogradely through MT-sliding; (5) proteins that bind along MTs (for example, tau, MAP1B; brown L's) protect MTs from depolymerization or severing factors and organize MTs by cross-linking them and regulating their spacing; (6–8) F-actin networks influence MT behaviors through antagonizing MT advance into lamellipodia and filopodia via retrograde flow (red arrows), through forming structures that can be supportive (for example, radial bundles) or inhibitory (for example, transverse arcs), through MT cross-linkage (yellow stars), through contractile activity (not shown), or through F-actin clearance from protrusions (shown in 8). For detailed information see [3,23].

    and

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    Figure 3
    Structural aspects of tubulins and microtubules (MTs). (A) MTs grow through head-to-tail polymerization of α-/ß-tubulin heterodimers into protofilaments that arrange into hollow tubes through lateral interactions. The α-and ß-tubulin monomers need to be folded properly assisted by chaperones, they heterodimerize through longitudinal interactions (peach arrow), they bind GTP (of which GTP on ß-tubulin tends to undergo hydrolysis to GDP) and undergo a number of posttranslational modifications, including de-tyrosination (often followed by de-glutamylation resulting in ∆2-tubulin), acetylation, poly-amination, (poly-)glycylation and (poly-)glutamylation [11]. MTBPs primarily interact with the C-terminus of tubulins which sticks out from the MT surface. (B) The secondary structure of α- and ß-tubulin (color-coded as in A) showing the positions of ß-sheets (B1-10) and α-helices (H1-12; image modified from [24]); the borders and principal functions of the N-terminal, intermediate and C-terminal domains of ß-tubulin are indicated at the bottom and arrows indicate examples of posttranslational modification sites [11,21]. Positions of known dominant-negative mutations are shown below the two secondary structures [25]. Those mutations tested by Niwa and colleagues are highlighted in light blue, asterisks indicate those mutations that impair tubulin incorporation into MTs and blue arrowheads indicate the two charge-changing mutations in H12 [26].

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3846809/
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What other dataprocessor in the body has dipolar (electrical) properties? In all the literature I have read, only the microtubule has been specifically identified as a dynamical dipolar coil, with ability to process electrical data and "action potentials" in a manner of a variable potentiometer.

    Thoughts in the brain produce an electrical field that can be measured via EEG mechanics.

    Electroencephalography
    Diagnostic test


    Description
    Note; EEG use dipolar techniques for processing brain generated electrical data.

    Dipole models for the EEG and MEG


    Abstract

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12002172/

    All informational data transport to the brain and emergent consciousness are provided by microtubules within the neural network.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022 at 3:51 AM
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Write4U:

    I think you have a different idea of what "data processing" means than I do.

    Suppose I connect a simple light bulb to a battery and it lights up because electrical current flows through the bulb. Would you say that the light bulb has the "ability to process electrical data"? I wouldn't.

    The bulb takes an input (electrical energy) and produces an output (light), but there's no "processing" going on in the sense of manipulating old information to produce new information.

    Similarly, a nerve carries an electrical impulse from one part of the body to another, but I wouldn't call that "data processing". A single nerve does not take in information and produce new information from it.

    The brain as whole does do "data processing", in that it is able to take in information and manipulate it in various ways to produce novel information as an "output".

    Do microtubules process data, or not?
     
  20. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    My two cents, from what I can glean from those who seem to, individually or collectively, have a grip on advanced biology, neuroscience, electromagnetism, quantum physics, anesthesiology, psychiatry and a smattering of philosophy, is that the so called "data processing" is referring to decoherence, or collapse of, the alleged quantum entanglement in the microtubules, which then aids in triggering the firing of neurons, and so is viewed as analogous to "making a decision." (At least by some of these wizards)

    Whether that meets the formal definition of "data processing" - well, my relevant microtubules have not yet collapsed on that issue

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  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    In a quasi-intelligent mathematical universe I would call any conversion from pure energy into a coherent pattern "data processing".

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    https://byjus.com/biology/difference-between-data-and-information/

    Perhaps I am too much of a romantic.

    But IMO, microtubules are definitely data processors. They convert electrochemical data into "action potentials".
    Moreover, the microtubule arrangement in "pyramidal neurons" act as data storage modules for "memory".

    Of microtubules and memory: implications for microtubule dynamics in dendrites and spines
    Erik W. Dent*
    William Bement, Monitoring Editor

    ABSTRACT
    more..... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5221613/

    See also Purkinje neurons.

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    Slide 7. Pyramidal and Purkinje cells
    https://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mmmoga/histology/slide114.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022 at 11:09 AM
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Will wonders never cease? Microtubules are critically involved in the transport of transposons and transposons are a very interesting

    Hijacking oogenesis enables massive propagation of LINE and retroviral transposons

    SUMMARY
    more......https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628338/
     

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