Politics of parenting

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ThazzarBaal, Oct 19, 2023.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Uh - no. Natural consequences are "you step on someone's toes and that hurts them, so you don't do it again." The opposite approach is "if you step on my toes I will make sure you are in pain; that will teach you!"

    One breeds compassion and an understanding of how the world works. The other teaches them that the strongest and most violent always win - so you better be the most violent.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure why you seek that status, but to each their own.
     
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  5. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    Where are you from? I myself live on planet earth.
     
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  7. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    Me either ... Must be something about where I live and how I was raised. Beyond that, a paddle would make a nice gift for a would be one day parent.

    I expect a thank you from all parties involved.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2023
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I'm from Earth too. And here on Earth we see the results of teaching our children violence every single day.

    When those kids get to be adults, they will look back on their upbringing when they live their lives. And when their girlfriend mouths off to them, they will remember the benefits of a flat strike with an open hand, aimed with precision in order to inflict an awareness of the consequence of mouthing off. And after that, they will recall that the anticipation and/or threat of another such correction may work to continue to keep her in line.

    And if that's the kind of man you want your kid (or grandkid) to grow up to be, keep making those paddles.
     
    Pinball1970 likes this.
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. That is called learning by logical consequences, which is completely different from punishment discipline.

    One causes them to gain wisdom and avoid touching hot elements; the other teaches them that violence solves problems - as long as they do it where and when you're not there to punish them.

    You're teaching them to fear the world, but you're not teaching then to be kind.
     
  10. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    I get your position, and you may or may not be off base. Violence ... Violence begets violence, learning discipline and correction is another matter. You suggest that type of disciplinary action results in domestic violence and abuse. I'll suggest abuse begets abuse and so on. Generational curses if you will are not unknown to me. We learn how to live via how we've been treated and parental actions help determine that type of mentality.

    For example: We learn as kids that it's ok to drink alcohol. What we sometimes fail to learn is moderation and self control. The goal of discipline is to learn self control, both as parents and as children. I myself am not opposed to spanking a child. I'm not opposed the slapping a child's hand. I'm not opposed to allowing a negative consequence in later years to illustrate the purpose for a rule, given the child is the disobedient type without enough discernment to know better.

    Although jail time is unpleasant, it's sometimes necessary, even when among a lot more dangerous criminal element than at home with a parent who chooses to discipline. We choose to help prevent the latter type of consequence.

    It's important enough for enough parents to choose it and to be hated for it by those they love most than to not discipline in this manner. It's not something we typically enjoy, but then sometimes we do. Why? Because we know that it helps curb unwanted behavior. The other choice, as in the example you gave, is to leave home and allow them to experience life without that type of parental influence. As adults that choice is ours, despite the harsh reality of life without an abusive spouse. Which is better?

    Runaways are nothing new in this world, nor are abused spouses.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Bit of a reach though to a custom weapon...

    Indeed. That too is a 'logical consequence' form of learning.

    A consequence that isn't arbitrarily meted out by the very person who is supposed to love them unconditionally.
     
  12. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    Kindness is actually my strong point. I'm very rarely the punishing kind. I understand the necessity at times. It's difficult to walk away from people we love and care about. It's difficult to cause them hurt. Even More difficult is standing back and watching them destroy themselves, their opportunities, their relationships, their trust, their name due to detrimental behavior.

    The world should be feared, as should many people in it. The difference is in how we learn to navigate, and the navigation is more often tricky than not. A simple fact of life is too much pleasure is typically detrimental, that too much negativity is typically detrimental, and that we are inherently equipped to know the difference between what is pleasant and painful. The navigation isn't complete without discernment and learning how to weigh matters out, which is where home life and abusers are so adequately effective in the keeping a handle on the abused. The alternative to the abuse seems more unpleasant than perhaps the abuse itself. Kindness can be a dangerous thing. That's typically how predators operate to find their victims to victimize.

    It's a war we've faced for ages it seems, and the best way I know how to battle it is to teach the differences between right and wrong. To be cautious seems appropriate, whether as a parent or a child.
     
  13. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    Not really. It's not even a weapon. Its a reminder that it's ok to discipline if and when it's required, no matter how difficult it may be to do so as a parent. Because it damn sure is a difficult thing for a parent to do sometimes. Other times, it's rewarding after enough is enough has been established, but then we have a need for a cool down period before flying off in a fit of anger. I think the carving out a paddle exercise extended over a few months might suffice....if only to give it's intended use a real good examination.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No man faster learns that every problem has a non-violent solution so much as the man who has had a mosquito land on his scrotum.
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Make no mistake. It is a weapon. Full stop.
     
  16. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    The intent to illustrate the reverse, or pendulum effect... I'm sure. I call that Karma, but you can call it whatever appeals to your intellectual and/or emotional pallet. That's, another great point, given the harvest type of mentality I grew up with. The seeds we plant grow on the ground we plant them or they are taken away and dropped elsewhere.

    The point is our choices have consequences and sometimes our choices are so limited that an easy expectation is difficult to aquire. Life can be difficult and while mosquitos irritating and sometimes deadly, prevention seems more appropriate than the alternative after being bit.
     
  17. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    More like a tool for appropriately arming a child for adulthood. What we learn young can be both a caution and a very useful tool in our adult arsenal.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    The point is: there's always a non-violent solution.
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Use all the euphamisms you want; you're only fooling yourself.

    It is a device whose sole purpose is to inflict pain. It is, by definition, a weapon.
     
  20. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    I might agree if not for knowing how some people are. Violent people are violent. I'm pretty sure they don't discriminate. If the solution is to suffer by the hands of violent people without taking adequate counter measures, I'll pass on your philosophy, as noble as it may seem at face value. The reality is we live in a dangerous world where violence occurs daily. I think it best to arm our children with an adequate arsenal.for defense. This would include an understanding that it is ok to use force when and if necessary.

    As for your insistence that a flat piece of wood, developed to cause discomfort on the derriere of a needy child, I can't force you to understand the difference, not can I articulate how wrong I think you are for that stance. I will allude to the alternative. No soda pops for a week, no game console or friends over, and of course no eating in your room plus an extra chore type of discipline didn't work with me, it didn't work for others I've known and I doubt very seriously that it'll work effectively for an adult under pressure in life. Although my discipline as a kid few and far between, it was enough to remind me of what I liked less. I'm ok without game consoles, soda pops, and no friends over. I'm ok with not eating in my room. I don't enjoy the sting of paddle and I damn sure didn't like jail when I needed a reminder. Just a heads up for potential future reference and of course something to think about.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    ThazzarBaal:
    You are demonstrating that violence begets violence. You have said that you were beaten as a child, and now here you are believing that beating your own kids is a good thing. You have absorbed the message that beating up on people who are smaller and weaker than you are is an acceptable thing to do - so much so that you actually think it's desirable.
    You yourself are a case in point. Apparently, you think that being physically violent towards your own children is good for them. It isn't. It might make you feel good about yourself (which I would say is fairly screwed up, in itself), but it certainly won't make them feel good about you. Think about how you feel now about the parent or parents who beat you when you were a kid. Is that how you want your kids to feel about you when they are adults?
    Yes. Abused people are far more likely to end up as abusers themselves. The worst abusers of all tend to be those who have suffered the most abuse from others. Childhood experiences are formative, although not completely determinative (thank goodness).
    Being beaten up is unlikely to teach moderation.
    "Discipline" is a poor euphemism for trying to excuse abuse.
    You're not opposed to beating a child with a home-made weapon. In fact, you're in favour of it.
    Labelling a child as a "disobedient type" is essentiallising what may be a fleeting characteristic or behaviour. If you constantly tell a child they are bad, worthless, useless, you can be sure they will internalise that. Perhaps, later, they will recognise you as the abuser you are, but they will carry emotional baggage regardless.

    It is appropriate for parents to teach children that their behaviours have consequences. That does not mean you need to abuse them, physically or emotionally.
    We don't put children in adult jails. Most of us understand that children are not adults. We understand that children are developing a moral understanding of the world, and that they will make mistakes while they learn. To treat a disobedient child like you would treat an adult criminal is barbaric. Note: even in adult prisons, corporal punishment is outlawed, at least in the more enlightened nations of the world. Almost everybody agrees that torture is unacceptable.
    You are assuming that abuse will lead to the outcomes you desire. But then, at the same time, you admit that you know it won't. It seems like you're quite mixed up when it comes to this.

    Wouldn't it be better to break the cycle of violence you were brought up with, rather than perpetuating it on your own, helpless children?
    You need to work out why you want to beat your children. If it's really about you - that you enjoy exerting power over those who are smaller and physically weaker than you - then you have a problem. You would probably benefit from talking to a professional psychologist or psychiatrist to try to get to the roots of why you enjoy hurting other people, so you can stop yourself from doing it. What you are doing is wrong and harmful. First and foremost, I am concerned for your victims, of course, but staying the way you are is also damaging to you, and will have long-lasting negative consequences for your future relationships if you continue this way. No doubt, you have already experienced some negative consequences from these habitual behaviours of yours.
    All you're telling us, it seems, is that you think it's fine to try to shape the world to make it in accordance with your own desires, through violence. Fortunately, there are laws that help to keep society at large relatively safe from you. It's shocking that you choose to prey on the most vulnerable, possibly as some sort of twisted compensation for not getting to have your way with violence in a more general sense.
    If they are being regularly beaten by you, they will be far better off without your physical presence.
    You've lost me. Are you now saying that you think it's okay to abuse your spouse, as well?
    Are you telling us that you'd rather have your children and spouse ran away from you in fear than you losing the joy your get from exerting your power over them through physical abuse and/or the threat of that? You sound like a deeply damaged individual.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2023
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Luckily, your fellow countrymen don't have to rely on your dog-eat-dog violence-based solution set, which is hopelessly limited and inadequate for maintaining any form of civil society. Instead, they can rely on laws and a system of policing that locks violent, dangerous people away from civil society so that they can't continue to carry out acts of violence against the innocent.
    Clearly, you don't talk to many people, outside of some narrow-sounding circle of people who believe that child abuse is an acceptable response whenever you're feeling frustrated or disempowered.

    A morality based on fear produces only the most limited form of acquiescence. "Don't do X or you will be physically punished" can be easily taught, but the only lesson it teaches is that might is right - the physically powerful get to terrorise the weak and vulnerable, according to their whims. I don't want to live in any society in which people have no sense of what it means to do the "right" thing - in which people only have the sense that if they don't obey violent bullies, then they will suffer. That's a horrible and evil world you're advocating for.$^*$
    Are you telling us that all that physical abuse you suffered as a child did not teach you the lessons you say it is supposed to teach, to avoid ending up in jail? Maybe you need to think about that some more.

    ---
    $^*$ Incidentally, I wonder whether you're a Christian who believes in hellfire and eternal damnation. The biblical morality that says "Do what God tells you to, or else you will burn in Hell for all eternity" is an example of exactly this kind of lowest-common denominator version of "morality" - a system based on fear and power, rather than on an understanding about what is right and good for human beings.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2023
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Jesus. You went from pretnding you were 'disciplining' your child - to suffering by the hands of violent people, and when it is OK to use force.

    You really can't make a distinction, can you?


    This is real-world dangerous. I wash my hands of it.

    :unsub: :ignore:
     
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