Questions about Covid-19?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by KUMAR5, Apr 26, 2021.

  1. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    Hello all,
    Greetings!

    Covid-19 is not yet fully clear so many many thoughts keep on brainstorming us, logically. I have these confusions and questions. :-

    1. Antibodies against this virus said to persist in body for 4-6+ months or so either post infection or
    post-vaccination. My confusion is, how these antibodies persist for so long. Is it its natural and normal
    lifespan or it has some yet unclear purpose ?If later, what can it be?

    Also can such persistence of antibodies in our body be also harmful since cultural targets were to develop Immunological Memory based immunity instead of long existing antibody based immunity.

    2. Many Medication or vaccines may be based on disturbing normal/natural activities of Virus esp. intra-cellular after infection of virus into the host cells. May it be by inactivated virus based vaccine or by interfering the normal activities of virus, replications etc. i.e disturbing the RNA or genome of virus. As felt, Virus is live once it is intra-cellular and its genome is really effective for its growth. Whole virus is not needed for such purpose. If so then, can it become a reason to
    get its variant or new form by such changed genome? I mean, can disturbing genome natural structure or activity of Covid-19 Virus lead to new variants or even new type of virus?

    Pls contribute.

    Best wishes.
     
    Dennis Tate likes this.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,798
    Yes it is natural for antibodies, and other functions of the immune system, to remain active against a virus for a long time. If they did not, nobody would build up any natural immunity to anything! All the childhood vaccinations you had work in this way. Some give lifelong protection, others need a top-up after a while.

    Vaccines do not work by disturbing the function of the virus. They work by stimulating the body's immune system to recognise, attack and neutralise the virus. This can be done by exposing the immune system to either a deactivated whole virus or just a part of a virus. Either way, the immune system recognises it as "foreign" and attacks it, by generating these things called antibodies that are tailor-made to fit the invader and neutralise it.

    There is no way this process can cause live viruses to mutate. New variants arise by evolution: natural random mutations during the replication process, and natural selection of those variants that reproduce most successfully. This is why it is important to cut down the number of infected cases: the more there are, the more chance there is of a successful mutation occurring randomly.
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    Welcome and thanks. But whether such long protection is by aquiring immunological memory or by long existing antibodies? Usually sntibodies are released for short time on multiple infection when needed. But in case of Covid they exist for long probably without involving immunological memory. It make me suspicious, can this virus hsve biphasic impact..acute and chronic/latent esp in view of their long existsnce, long covid and possible reinfection (if it not relapse).

    I meant by it, since virus has short life can it be evolved early and get mutated variant by various human interventions disturbing its origional make up. Eg by deactivating whole virus for vaccine, by some anti virals which tsrget their activities/replication etc after virus reach into the host cells.
    Why these can not change origionsl RNA or genome of virus post infection?

    Moreover, I wsnt to know if generation of antibodies is an energy derived activity and if abnormal or pathological to body then body may not prefer to keep these for long time?
    In some sense, should presence of antibodies suggest some ongoing healing process?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. candy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    996
    Long covid is an exhausting experience. Literally exhausting. Much like Epstein-Barr it can cause chronic fatigue which may suggest that it resides in the bone marrow and emerges under any stressor. Chicken pox can stay dormant in nerve ending for years and emerge as shingles.

    I hope long covid equates to long immunity.
     
  8. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    Thanks. By exhsusing, do you mean lstent or residue effect? Long Covid may have two types of abnormalities. One, by actual injury to body parts or system. Two, by long term persisting sntibody based immune response. EBV infection also show long existing antibodies which may be related to some ongoing immune response but tolersble by us.
     
  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,798
    No that's wrong. Antibodies are NOT a short term response. They can persist for years or decades. That is the basis of childhood immunisation programmes. See this study on how long they persist for various childhood vaccines: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27364096/

    The rest of your post does not seem to make a lot of sense. But if you are trying to suggest that inactivated whole virus vaccines could lead to mutation in the live virus, the answer is no. The viruses in the vaccines are deactivated, so they cannot enter the body's cells and hijack the cell's replication machinery to make more viruses, as a live virus does.

    I repeat: the mechanism by which new variants arise is well understood - and was predicted. It has nothing, I say again, nothing to do with the vaccines. Vaccines stop new variations, by reducing the level of infection and hence the opportunities for the virus to mutate.

    As "for energy derived activity", what on earth are you talking about? If you start trying to spin some pseudoscientific woo about energy, I'll be out of his discussion like a shot.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,163
    That's how immunologic memory works. Memory B lymphocytes retain the blueprints for those antibodies and express them again when the right antigen presents itself.
    It is a natural response to an artificial stimulus (the vaccine.)
    Memory based immunity is antibody based immunity.
    No. Vaccines do not combat the virus itself. Vaccines merely prime your body to fight off the virus. That's why giving the vaccine after someone is infected is usually not effective.
    Vaccines do not "disturb natural genome structure."
    New variants will evolve, yes. That's true of all pathogens.
     
  11. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    I think, childhood immunization is a immunological memory based immunization not antibody based. Do you think, antibodies to specific infectious agent persist in body for whole life in some cases and for very long time in other cases?

    Btw whether genome of virus is effected on deactivation of virus? It can enter or not into the cells will be different research.

    Many pathogens say bacterias become resistant to antibiotics quickly. Therefore we need these to change regularly. Then why cant virus also change/evolve quickly due to changed environment by medications for their survival?

    Whether body need to spend some energy for producing these antibodies? Body usually conserve energy as much as possible therefore it prefer immunological memory for long term immunity instead of antibodies. In this case antibodies are produced by lymphocytes only when same infectious agent infect again for short term or till that agent is cleared from body. Not ßo?
    Nothing woo in it. Rest assured and continue pls.
     
  12. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    It should but it is not like so in case if Covid virus, I think. Here antibodues persist for long term. Why and for what purpose, I am trying to understsnd. Can it be purposeless after infection is cleared?

    Yes but it should be a short time event. Long term event is to get immunological memory? I think, it does not happen in case of Covid and due to it we may need reoeated vaccinations. Means, immune system is not primed in this case.

    Yes culturally, vaccine should prime our body but here it is merely encouraging to produce sntibodies which will not be repeated by memory cell but will be repeated by the effect of vaccine.
    We need to understsnd, how quickly this virus could evolve for its survival due to msn created chsnged environment?
     
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,670
    i am not a micro biologist so most of these questions i can not answer
    as a scientist

    i have divided up all your questions so others can clearly read each different question

    woah !
    this question ...



    there are several fairly well known issues where the bodys anti bodys kill the host(patient)

    this is a typical problem around organ transplant
    is a core aspect of bone marrow transplant
    and relates directly to oncology science and hematology science


    immune blocker drugs
    https://www.cancer.org/treatment/tr...munotherapy/immune-checkpoint-inhibitors.html
    Immune Checkpoint Inhibitors and Their Side Effects


    An important function of the immune system is its ability to tell between normal cells in the body and those it sees as “foreign.” This lets the immune system attack the foreign cells while leaving the normal cells alone. To do this, it uses “checkpoints.” Immune checkpoints are molecules on certain immune cells that need to be activated (or inactivated) to start an immune response.


    Cancer cells sometimes find ways to use these checkpoints to avoid being attacked by the immune system. But drugs that target these checkpoints hold a lot of promise as cancer treatments. These drugs are called checkpoint inhibitors.


    It's important to know that checkpoint inhibitors used to treat cancer don't work directly on the tumor at all. They only take the brakes off an immune response that has begun but hasn't yet been working at its full force.




    i think you may be undermining your own quality & value of answer here by calling vaccines & treatments the same thing
    they are completely different

    you may want to re-word that question into proper science
    otherwise you get "spaghetti monster" as the answer




    Genetic engineering of Virus ?
    versus
    DNA engineering of a virus

    does genetic engineering of viruses already exist ?
    ... ?

     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,670
    without a universal health care system & in the midst of massive unemployment & a global recession
    in a user pays capitalist society
    getting clear accurate scientific data on long covid will be almost impossible
    the only countrys long covid data i would consider vaguely scientifically valid would be European & UK & Australia
    most other countrys are too heavily weighted against true data on the maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid

    usa long covid data will be bent by upper middle class hypochondriacs

    all the working class & poor will be pigeon holed into symptomatic illness (i expect)

    health insurance corporate, 'control' 'mainstream medical science in the usa'
    cost reduction...
    illness & science invalidation...
    rule the basic common environment

    additionally any other illness that can then be claimed for is used to cover income shortages
    THAT is how the system is designed
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  15. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    This is seprate issue, I do not make base of it. I look on long term side effects faced by Covid pstients post treatment.

    Yes vaccine and treatments are different issues. Former acts extracellular whereas later both extra and intracellular. Look at following link:
    https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/types
    Few types of vaccines do disturb genome during their prepration process. How this changed genome can effect, I am trying to understsnd deeply.

    Same with treatments designed on affecting virus intracellular. I will post a link in next post about type of such treatments by anti virals etc.
     
  16. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
  17. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    Look at it:-

    "Table 4. Existing Drugs with Therapeutic Potentials for COVID-19 (Drug Repurposing)
    favipiravir (favilavir)a
    aRdRpa purine nucleoside that acts as an alternate substrate leading to inaccurate viral RNA synthesis

    remdesivira1809249-37-3a nucleotide analogue that may block viral nucleotide synthesis to stop viral replication

    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acscentsci.0c00272 "

    Don't these disturb genome of virus?
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,163
  19. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    Thanks where does it suggest acquired immunity is long existing antibody based?
    It suggests "
    Immune cells called T and B cells recognize there’s an “invader” pathogen and activate the immune system to fight it.

    The next time the T and B immune cells encounter that specific germ, they’ll recognize it and immediately activate the rest of your immune system to prevent you from getting sick."

    So it is immunological memory

    I think it does not happen in case of COVID either by natural infection or by vaccination.

    Is it not true?

    Antibody oriented immune response :- On going healing immune response.
    Immunological Memory: Anticipated immunity to reinfection.
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,163
    Vaccinations work by creating immunological memory. Including COVID-19 vaccines.
     
  21. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    923
    How? We always talk sbout antibodies by covid vaccine and these are also detected in antibody tests.
    However this link suggest you are correct.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...nated, our bodies recognize,one that causes C

    But I don't understand then how we can tslk about serological surveys, herd immunity etc which can be checked by antibody tests. I think no routine test is available to check status of Immunokogical Memory.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,163
    Vaccines are not antibodies. Again, read the two links I showed you.
    Antibody presence is a surefire test for immunity. However you can be immune and not currently producing antibodies. They monitor that by monitoring the prevalence of breakthrough infections.
     
  23. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,112
    The vaccine is NOT the antibodies. The vaccine works by giving you a version of the virus that has been stripped (hopefully!) of all the nasty stuff, but it will retain the characteristics that your body will recognise as being an invader.
    When you're infected by an invader, your body produces T and B lympohcites, as well as other parts of the immune system. The B lymphocites produce anti-bodies, i.e. they produce things which attack the virus (while the T lymphocites attack your cells that have already been infected). When your immune system produces the B and T lymphocites it will remember what gave rise to the need to produce them - i.e. it will have "memory" of the virus - so the next time you're infected with a virus with the same characteristics it has memory of, it can react much quicker, and stop the virus before it takes hold and causes harm.
    If you have the antibodies, which your immune system produced, your immune system will remember - i.e. having antibodies means that your body will have a memory (for a while at least) of the virus that required fighting.
    But as Billvon said, you can be immune without currently producing antibodies, as the memory should remain, and thus should hopefully enable quick production when needed. Unfortunately the memory is not usually permanent, hence the need for boosters. Similarly the virus might mutate sufficiently such that the body no longer recognises it as a virus it knows how to fight, in which case you will no longer have the immunity.
     

Share This Page