US and Isreal - Why?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by aaqucnaona, Oct 18, 2012.

  1. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Why does the US support the Israel so very much? What is it about Israel? I am extremely naive when it comes to politics and I have no idea WHY Israel was formed or why the US wants a Jewish state in the middle east. I also dont understand why the middle east seems to be opposed to Israel. Can someone explain?

    Ps. I know this sounds stupid and an outspoken atheist like myself probably should have some knowledge of religion and politics in the middle east; but besides being somewhat lazy about politics, I also have the excuse of being 18. International policy is obviously not central in my mind at this age, however I do apologise if I made anyone facepalm on reading my question.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Read the book: "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

    /end
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Israel is a loyal ally. There was already a thread about this. The US generally feels that Jews were victims of genocide and hatred for centuries and deserve a state from which to defend their culture and faith. Muslims have a culture that considers Islam to be the supreme and final religion of the world, and any land that is forcibly or otherwise converted to Islam must remain that way until the end of time. Israel basically said fuck that and pissed them off.
     
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  7. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    Israel is the only country that has a freely elected government, allows women to hold government positions and is a very important ally in the Arabic world that surrounds it. It is about the only Democracy that is over in that part of the Arabic world and that's why it will always have American support 100%.
     
  8. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    You seem to be ignoring Iraq, Egypt and Libya. Also Turkey has been democratic for a long time, although it is not "Arabic."
     
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, really???? You're going to have to do some serious stretching of the imagination in order to qualify Iraq, Egypt and Libya!!!!
     
  10. Chipz Banned Banned

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    There's several reasons both historically and presently. Most modern reasons are not based out of political altruism. The majority of Evangelical Christians are big supporters of Israel and many consider themselves Zionist's. However, their motives initially were pro-Israel because they saw Jews returning to Israel as a pre-requisite for their Messiah returning. It's a bit ironic in this sense, since few were honest to say 60 years ago that bringing the Jews together in Israel was only for them to be either destroyed or converted. Today, Evangelical Christianity has become more docile in its approach to their messiah and has even accepted (to a degree) that when their "apocalypse" comes it need not be bloody and the Jews need not be converted. Whatever they may believe today, they see it as a fulfillment and reaffirmation of their religion.

    Others support Israel for political interests. Mossad is by far the best collector of information in the middle-east followed by perhaps the ISI which is less cooperative. To these people Israel is nothing more than a strategic American outpost which is semi-expendable.

    There are others who view the 2000 year history of people periodically slaughtering the Jews from as far east as Mongolia to as far west as Portugal. As far south as South Africa to as far North as St. Petersburg. In their opinion the Jews need self-determination and the ability to defend themselves.

    As to why Muslims don't like Israel is even more complicated! Complicated (and controversial) enough that I don't want to go in depth about it. It suffices to say that Islam is a very plastic religion which manifests itself differently throughout the world. Indonesia is the largest Muslim population in the world and likely less than 1% of the population has ever met a Jew. This can be said as likely true for the majority of Islamic republic's east of Iran. To them the "Jew" is a caricature painted by various hadiths and Quranic passages reinforced by a dependence on primarily middle-eastern news sources. To many Muslims who haven't met Jews, there is no separating the "Jew" of their Quran (who were primarily Arab converts) and the "Jew" of the Haddiths (in which Jew simply was used as a pejorative much like demon was used for Christians) and the "Jew" of Israel who is living human being not much different than them. Additionally Muhammed (despite some modern Arab revisionism) was mocked by the Jews of his time. Jews overwhelmingly chose death over calling him a prophet, if I recall the Quran cites something like only 3 out of 10,000 converted to Islam. His disagreement with the Jews is the primary reason the Al Aqsa mosque was built directly on top of the old Jewish Temple ruins.

    What's equally ironic is many Muslims state they want the Jews all to go Israel for the same reason Evangelical Christian's wanted them to 60 years ago. Where the Christians no longer think Jewish slaughtering is requisite for their messiah, Muslims still from a theological view still do. What's important to recognize in that statement is Muslims have a serious disconnect between their religious views in action and their theological views in theory.
    --

    It seems to be only a miracle this confluence occurs today. Without American backing today Israel may still stand on its own. Without American backing 40 years ago there would be no Israel and the Jews would once again be scattered throughout the world subjugated to the whims of their host nations. So when people complain about the lobbying power of the American, European, Russian, and even Arab Jews... I am personally dismissive. If 1 out of 10 of people born in your history were killed for their religion over a period of 2000 years, vigilance towards their security is fair.
     
  11. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Just curious about the bolded portion: when you say you "have no idea why Israel was formed," are you referring to particularities or do you mean that in the most basic sense? I ask because I used to edit textbooks, and I'm pretty certain that the formation of Israel is covered, at least superficially, in grade 9 World History textbooks.
     
  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Sociologists say that Americans identify with the Israelis. Most of our ancestors migrated from places where they were discriminated against or actually persecuted. They see America as sort of the new "Promised Land."

    The USA has always tried compulsively to be what Europe is not. That started out with not having a king and it just kept going. Look at how many of us today are screaming about not instituting "European-style socialism."

    And if there's one thing that characterized Europe for the last millennium and a half, it's antisemitism. While there was a certain level of antisemitism in America, going back to colonial times, it's nothing compared to most of the rest of the world. Even with our "gentlemen's agreements" keeping Jews out of high-class neighborhoods, Jews were treated more fairly here than in any other place they went since Roman times, except China. (In China they were treated so well that they completely assimilated and disappeared, and many Jewish leaders in America are worried that the same thing will happen here. "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

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    )

    The Holocaust made our people feel even more strongly. Unfortunately they didn't believe the reports at the time and didn't allow shiploads of Jewish refugees to land here. (The poor Haitians took in as many as their island could hold and shared their scarce resources just the way Jesus would have wanted them to. These are the people Pat Robertson said deserved their earthquake because God was angry at them!)

    Once we saw the photos of Auschwitz (I was born during WWII but I didn't understand any of that stuff until many years later), we made it our duty to help the surviving Jews get a fresh start. Our military ended up being in charge of their refugee camps and there simply wasn't any place in Europe that we could release them to. Antisemitism was still strong there, and many Europeans refused to believe that the Holocaust happened so they felt no guilt or shame. (We tried sending a bunch back to their original homes in Poland and the Polish people started killing them!) So we went along with the British offer to give them some worthless piece of land in Asia Minor called "Palestine" because apparently nobody was living there, at least nobody important, and for some reason we didn't understand (no American studies history because if we ever learned our own we'd be ashamed of ourselves) the Jews were happy to take it.

    Too much of what is going on in Israel/Palestine is our own fault. Couple that with the fact that we've always felt great sympathy for the Jews (especially in the abstract, if they're not trying to buy the house next door), and you've got a combination of guilt and sympathy that will outweigh any facts or numbers.

    One of the largest blocs of Americans who are not sympathetic to Israel are young American Jews! More Israelis are leaving their country and coming here, than Jewish Americans are "going home to the Promised Land."
     
  13. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    No, I'm not. All three of those countries have democratically elected civilian governments.
     
  14. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously you've paid NO attention to the Middle East news for a LONG time now! That statement is pure foolishness!!
     
  15. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Tell me, oh troll: are you asserting that those three states do not have democratically elected civilian governments?

    Or just baiting me with vacuous condescension?
     
  16. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    I NEVER troll and I NEVER bait - such things are childish and for foolish people, not mature adults! I strongly suggest you fire up Google or go to the "CIA Factbook" and check out your rather silly claims.
     
  17. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    That is exactly what a troll would say.

    You can go ahead and do your own homework - and state your position in some positive sense - if you want me to care about your assertions. Continued empty condescension will be written off as a pathetic attempt at trolling. As it stands, I am comfortable with my position as stated.

    So, again: is it your contention that the governments of Iraq, Libya and Egypt do not have democratically elected civilian governments? If so, what is the basis for that assertion?

    Are you going to actually contribute something substantive here, or just take hollow pot-shots at me?
     
  18. Chipz Banned Banned

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    Ech...

    Iraq:
    Presidents were elected until 1979. After 1979 Sadaam led until 2003. Presidents have been elected since 2004.

    Lybia:
    Never had a president until 2012.

    Egypt:
    Do we want to count Nasser as a president? He led 15 years and died. Sadat led 21 years and was then assassinated. MuBarek led 30 years and was ousted.

    --

    Yes today we are seeing a wave of new presidential elections in the middle east. But it's not that unlike the past. These "presidents" were perhaps elected at one point (maybe), but they all invariably all turn into dictatorial powers staging fake elections.
     
  19. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    You neglect to mention elections for legislative bodies, local government, etc.

    Of course - that was exactly his title.

    Note that nothing in the definition of "President" requires democratic elections or legitimacy of any sort. It is simply the name of a particular type of executive position. Saddam Hussein was President of Iraq, despite never having stood for any elections. Likewise, Hu Jintao is the President of China despite never having stood for any elections.

    That may happen at some point in the future - in any number of countries - or it may not.

    Either way, it has no bearing on the basic fact that Iraq, Libya and Egypt are today democracies.
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    bullshit this is zionist AIPAC propaganda. this tired whiny bullshit is plain bigotry. oh the noble persacuted jews and the evil savage muslims gimmie a fucking break. Israel isn't loyal its the most treachoous of allies. Israel has killed more americans than any other country in the region except ones we have been involved in wars there. ITs killed the second most americans agents of national security of all. the us intelligence community rates Israel as the third highest counter intelligence threat to the country. Your just defending Israel because your jewish not because you have any facts on your side. You want to know why we support Israel jewish money and jewish votes. the day arabs become a more important voting bloc the tit comes out of Israel mouth and it has to pay for it crimes. You can thin whatever the fuck you want but an american president the one who first supported ISrael and its crimes said as much.
     
  21. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    in other words their right up your alley.
     
  22. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    paradisus Iudaeorum poland didn't earn this name for no reason

    that is a gross misrepresentation of the over all climate and history of post war poland and the creation of ISrael but from an american I'm not surprised. shit you probably still believe most of nazi propaganda against the poles.

    firstly the major pomgrom in post war poland has major support of a theory it was engeineered by the soviets to discredit the polish government in exile. secondly while there was anti semitism in poland there was also the view rightly or wrongly that the jews were pro communist which in poland at the time was to be pro russian. being viewed as pro russian wasn't going to make one very welcome in post war poland for obvious reasons. thirdly there is the idea that animosity went one way. this is false. despite efforts to paint jewish relations with poland as purely innocent that wasn't the case. hell at one of the major zionist congresses the leader was pushing the german government to annex parts of partitianed poland from russia and give to german jews.


    as for palestine the british offer was irrelevant the moment they signed the UN charter. also palestine wasn't given to the zionists they took it by force.
     
  23. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Guess thats more proof that being abused\discriminated against doesnt make someone more noble. After all if your founders fleed from eroupe to escape abuse they were very quickly the abusers themselves, of the native americans and of those they enslaved
     

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