Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon

[Neverfly]

Prove that afterlife does not exist, I dare to challenge you.
You can't prove/disprove the afterlife.

Exactly- which is why your "dare" isn't much of a dare, is it?
Might as well dare me to prove that invisible elves don't exist. By the way, a decent person would apologize for accusing me of forbidding a mortally ill person hope. Since I demonstrated the glaring error in your accusation- perhaps you might like to try your hand at decency.

And what I think is that you actually lie about this, people who survive multiple deaths don't think like that, and I have met MANY of them.

Ok then... Well, I think you're lying about your experiences.

So now what are we gonna do?

 

[AlphaNumeric]

I'm still waiting for one of you scholarly scientific intellectuals to justify the use of "fuzzy" wave-functions in quantum mechanics. If nature behaves that way, then nature deviates from logical behaviour at the quantum level. At the quantum level, objects are no longer discrete, therefore, nature deviates from logic.

You make such blanket statements, which only serve to show you don't know anything about quantum mechanics nor, it seems, logic. Quantum mechanics doesn't mean nature deviates from logic. It might deviate from common sense or every day experience but those are very very different from logic. We can construct sound mathematical formalisms to describe quantum systems and mathematics is a form of logical reasoning. Thus your claim it implies a deviation from logic is false.

You've made this mistake before, conflating common sense with logic. People's common sense is not necessarily logical. Things which behave in a manner outside of our usual experience will not align with our expectations or common sense but that's because we develop our common sense by experiencing everyday things. The world of the very small or the very fast is not something we experience usually, thus our common sense is not going to deal well with them. As for your comments about this having something to say about an after life that's a complete non-sequitor. Yet another example of how you don't have a decent grasp of logic.

And as for your comments about atheists and scientists, you're showing you haven't bothered to find out what either of those groups say and would rather invent things you think or hope they say (what you hope seems to be what you think is true, so there isn't really a distinction for you) to convince yourself of what are ultimately untrue things. Time and time and time again you show you're willing to lie and be dishonest. It'll achieve nothing. If you really think your god exists do you think he/she/it would look kindly on your repeated dishonesty? Is lying okay so long as it's to try to further your own position? Isn't there something in the Bible about not bearing false witness? As well as picking and choosing from reality you seem to pick and choose your morals too.

1 How much do we know about Dark mater ? are we not following some authority opinion ?

No, we aren't following some argument from authority because an argument from authority is "Person X knows about subject Y. X asserts Z to do with Y. Therefore Z is true". That's quite different from "Person X presents multiple, different but corroborating, pieces of evidence for Z and Persons A, B, C, ..... , D, who are also knowledgeable in Y, examine the evidence thoroughly and conclude it is a reasonable explanation for Z". There are multiple, different phenomena which point to dark matter. They have been presented to the community at large, many people have reviewed the data and the proposed models and continue to do so. And before you try it, no, that isn't the same as saying "This is unquestionably true!". Unlike Mazula and his claims about aliens, god and aether, physicists know that you cannot ever prove a model is absolutely true.

Here's a question. If the brain is the only carrier of consciousness, then why does it go through this elaborate storyline of pretending there is life after death, dead relatives to meet, God, Light, a tunnel, when the brain is in trouble and is about to go offline forever? Why don't we have these experiences when we go to sleep? Only when we are about to die?

You make it sound like everyone goes through that, which is obviously not the case. Furthermore, why is it that for those religious people who experience such things that it always appears as if their religion is the right one, ie a Christian sees Jesus or Mary, while a Muslim sees Muhammed or a Hindu sees Vishnu? They are inconsistent belief structures, they can't all be right. That suggests it isn't some external reality the brain is accessing but rather a jumbled up sequence of things already contained in the brain. Just like a computer can crash and print some random fragment of a file on its hard drive to the screen a person's brain can jumble up memory and imagination when it breaks down.

So is an NDE some kind of program that runs in the brain, as an evolutionary tool to trick us into thinking we survive death? could it just be an audio/video program in the brain that runs when we know we're going to die?

Neither, since your assertion it happens to everyone is obviously false.

If the sick and dying (and disabled brain) is just running an audio video program to fool us into thinking that an afterlife exists, then it won't be able to tell us information that we don't already know.

But if it's real, if we really are seeing/communicating with angels, deceased family/friends, then we could ask them to send us back with information that we wouldn't be expected to know. Information that we have know way of knowing. Wouldn't this be proof of an afterlife?

For example, what if deceased grandma tells you that your younger sister is pregnant, and you didn't even know she was seeing anyone. What are the odds?

No reputable evidence has ever been found to support that. Many people who claim to be able to leave their body or to regularly experience what you talk about have been put to the test, like being asked what a note on top of a cupboard says. The tests fail to support the claims made by such people.

What is the evolutionary advantage of perpetuating a fake afterlife? But like I said, I think that it's a real phenomena beyond the standard model..

Since the assumption you're always making, that everyone's brain experiences that during a NDE, is patently false all of the conclusions you make are unjustified and simply assertions. Like everything else you are say.

No consistency? Why do you have to be intellectually dishonest?

You want to talk about intellectual dishonesty?! Wow, talk about hypocrisy.

Tunnels, floating above your body, light, meeting relatives, friends, angels, deity. That sounds pretty consistent to me. I bet their are African tribesmen who have NDE's of their relatives.

Many people who have experienced NDE of a religious kind haven't seen angels. Some religions don't have angels or even a deity (Buddhism for instance). You talk as if everyone experiences a NDE with your religions iconography. Yet another example of you don't zero effort to check before making ridiculous and baseless claims.

But if I had to guess, I would go back to the wave-function description of the aether medium. I would guess that the aether, the quantum vacuum, allows objects beyond the standard model to exist. I would guess that such objects are more like particles or better yet fields that can retain and express neurological information about the brain. When the brain is dead, this neurological information carrying field still exists.

Where's your evidence this information continues? Nowhere. Do you just go through life asserting things as fact? Do you not have a single shred of intellectual honesty?

A skeptic would have no clue what I'm talking about.

Because all you ever do is make up ignorant nonsense.

The information is eventually passed down to the wave-function-aetheric counterpart of the neurons, then seeps in to the neurological information processing center. And you have your out of body experience.

I really really hope you're an act, that you're someone pretending to be as delusional as you're acting. If you're not putting on an act I have no idea how you function in society.

Anyway, I'm not going to go through any more of your posts. Clearly honesty, information, reality and sanity are concepts utterly unknown to you. You seem incapable of doing anything other than asserting and lying.

 

[Mazulu]

You make such blanket statements, which only serve to show you don't know anything about quantum mechanics nor, it seems, logic.

Why do you have to lie? Why do you have to slander? I know that wave-functions are solutions to the Schrodinger equation. Are you reckless with other people's reputations too?

Quantum mechanics doesn't mean nature deviates from logic.

Yes it does. It's called quantum logic.

It might deviate from common sense or every day experience but those are very very different from logic. We can construct sound mathematical formalisms to describe quantum systems and mathematics is a form of logical reasoning. Thus your claim it implies a deviation from logic is false.

Quantum mechanic (nature) defies logic in this sense. Quantum particles are not discrete objects like a baseball is (as an example). A baseball is going to have a very clearly defined position and momentum; a baseball behaves classically. But an electron is a quantum particle; an electron is a DeBroglie wave. It's position and momentum cannot both be known precisely, simultaneously. Quantum particles and quantum systems are described, not as classical and discrete objects, but as quantum wave-functions.

So that there is no misunderstanding, I am not challenging the competence of quantum physicists. What I am saying is that wave-functions should be elevated from a mere mathematics to a phenomenon of nature. Do you agree? If that is true, then there is no scientific basis for science to rule out the existence of an after-life (which is the topic of this thread).

You've made this mistake before, conflating common sense with logic. People's common sense is not necessarily logical. Things which behave in a manner outside of our usual experience will not align with our expectations or common sense but that's because we develop our common sense by experiencing everyday things. The world of the very small or the very fast is not something we experience usually, thus our common sense is not going to deal well with them. As for your comments about this having something to say about an after life that's a complete non-sequitor. Yet another example of how you don't have a decent grasp of logic.

Go look at the name of the thread!!!!! We're discussing the existence, or non existence, of the after-life. What is your beef?

And as for your comments about atheists and scientists, you're showing you haven't bothered to find out what either of those groups say and would rather invent things you think or hope they say (what you hope seems to be what you think is true, so there isn't really a distinction for you) to convince yourself of what are ultimately untrue things. Time and time and time again you show you're willing to lie and be dishonest. It'll achieve nothing. If you really think your god exists do you think he/she/it would look kindly on your repeated dishonesty? Is lying okay so long as it's to try to further your own position? Isn't there something in the Bible about not bearing false witness? As well as picking and choosing from reality you seem to pick and choose your morals too.

You just lied about me!!! I proved it.

 

[Mazulu]

You make it sound like everyone goes through that, which is obviously not the case. Furthermore, why is it that for those religious people who experience such things that it always appears as if their religion is the right one, ie a Christian sees Jesus or Mary, while a Muslim sees Muhammed or a Hindu sees Vishnu? They are inconsistent belief structures, they can't all be right. That suggests it isn't some external reality the brain is accessing but rather a jumbled up sequence of things already contained in the brain. Just like a computer can crash and print some random fragment of a file on its hard drive to the screen a person's brain can jumble up memory and imagination when it breaks down.

So when you lay on your deathbed, do you expect the toothfairy to come for you?

 

[Neverfly]

Why do you have to lie? Why do you have to slander? -----You just lied about me!!! I proved it.

No, you didn't. You demonstrated a particular trait: Denial.

Say you have a spider sitting on your foot that you're not aware of and I come along and say, "There's a spider on your foot."
If you deny the spider being there, did I lie about you? Can you ignore the spider and say you 'proved' that I lied about you?
Mazulu, there is a great deal you do not understand. Just because someone else understands the things you don't, you cannot say they claim to know everything. That's a childish tactic.

Be honest with yourself.

 

[Mazulu]

I really really hope you're an act, that you're someone pretending to be as delusional as you're acting. If you're not putting on an act I have no idea how you function in society. Anyway, I'm not going to go through any more of your posts. Clearly honesty, information, reality and sanity are concepts utterly unknown to you. You seem incapable of doing anything other than asserting and lying.

You abuse your position of authority. You like about others and defame their reputation. You have no concept that some people have had experiences that transcend the physical world as we know it. People like you call it insanity. Pray to whatever god or toothfairy you believe in that you never have to experience true insanity. And you should examine your own lies and tendency to bare false witness.

 

[Mazulu]

No, you didn't. You demonstrated a particular trait: Denial.

Here is is.

You make such blanket statements, which only serve to show you don't know anything about quantum mechanics nor, it seems, logic.

Why do you have to lie? Why do you have to slander? I know that wave-functions are solutions to the Schrodinger equation. Are you reckless with other people's reputations too?

Go get your glasses checked.

 

[AlexG]

Pray to whatever god or toothfairy you believe in that you never have to experience true insanity

So what's it like?

 

[Neverfly]

Here is is.
Go get your glasses checked.

You mean my eyes. I don't wear glasses. Also irrelevant as the intent refers to reading comprehension. Maybe you mean my brain needs to be checked. It's broken.

Mazulu, poorly worded one sentence responses do not demonstrate understanding QM. Seems my brain is fine.
You neglected to mention your "aether" and your misconceptions of wave functions. You have misconceptions about wave functions. You seem to think you can make this stuff up as you go along- it doesn't work that way.

 

[Mazulu]

Mazulu, poorly worded one sentence responses do not demonstrate understanding QM. Seems my brain is fine.
You neglected to mention your "aether" and your misconceptions of wave functions. You have misconceptions about wave functions. You seem to think you can make this stuff up as you go along- it doesn't work that way.

Then what is the correct wording professor neverfly? Why guess is that you don't have any idea what a quantum wave-function is. As an ex-priest, why would you ever need to take a class in quantum mechanics.

The time dependent Schrodinger equation looks like this:
$$i\hbar\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\Psi(r,t) = [\frac{-\hbar}{2m}\nabla^2+V(r,t)]\Psi(r,t)$$

V(r,t) is the potential energy as a function of time t and position r. The idea is to find a wave-function $$\psi(r,t)$$ that satisfies the Schrodinger differential equation. I continue to express my belief that $$\psi(r,t)$$ is really describing a phenomenon of nature. I am not the only person who believes this. But I have yet to see someone like Alphanumeric agree or disagree with this opinion.

 

[Mazulu]

Since I expect to meet my family in the afterlife, I must spend time with the family I have in this life. Gotta go.

 

[Neverfly]

Then what is the correct wording professor neverfly?

"I don't know."

as an ex-priest, why would you ever need to take a class in quantum mechanics.

Volunteer ministry- that was over ten years ago. I was never a priest.

The time dependent Schrodinger equation looks like this:
$$i\hbar\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\Psi(r,t) = [\frac{-\hbar}{2m}\nabla^2+V(r,t)]\Psi(r,t)$$

V(r,t) is the potential energy as a function of time t and position r. The idea is to find a wave-function $$\psi(r,t)$$ that satisfies the Schrodinger differential equation. I continue to express my belief that $$\psi(r,t)$$ is really describing a phenomenon of nature. I am not the only person who believes this. But I have yet to see someone like Alphanumeric agree or disagree with this opinion.

That's the non-relativistic time dependent differential equation. What phenomenon of nature is psi (r,t) describing?

 

[Mazulu]

Volunteer ministry- that was over ten years ago. I was never a priest.

Sorry, now I picture you as a Catholic priest with this exorcist thing going on. That just a bit of my imagination going on...

That's the non-relativistic time dependent differential equation. What phenomenon of nature is psi (r,t) describing?

The luminiferous aether!

 

[Neverfly]

Sorry, now I picture you as a Catholic priest with this exorcist thing going on. That just a bit of my imagination going on...

Hardly...

The luminiferous aether!

I was hoping you'd say something else entirely. See- this is where you come crumbling down.
Here, read this:http://arxiv.org/pdf/1111.3328v2.pdf

And let's allow the thread to stay on topic.

 

[Mazulu]

Hardly...

lol

I was hoping you'd say something else entirely. See- this is where you come crumbling down. Here, read this:http://arxiv.org/pdf/1111.3328v2.pdf
And let's allow the thread to stay on topic.

Quoting the article,

Many physicists and chemists concerned with pragmatic applications of quantum theory successfully
treat the quantum state in this way. Many others have suggested that the quantum state is something less than real [1{8]. In particular, it is often
argued that the quantum state does not correspond directly to reality, but represents an experimenter's knowledge or information about some aspect of reality. This
view is motivated by, amongst other things, the collapse of the quantum state on measurement. If the quantum state is a real physical state, then collapse is a mysterious physical process, whose precise time of occurrence is not well-dened.

OK, remember who you're talking to. I'm a spiritualist. I am perfectly comfortable with the idea of ghosts and spirits interacting with our physical universe and then vanishing without a trace. It is argued that the quantum state does not correspond directly to reality. In my view, reality itself is not made of hard information, hard one's and zero's if you will. In my view, information content can be thought of as 1's and 0's. But sometimes those one's and zero's are not sharp and clear. What I'm saying is that there are parts of reality that cannot be predicted by a model. Nevertheless, nature can still express itself and supernatural activity can still express itself as well. If a spirit tries hard enough, it might be able to project an image of itself as a bunch of photons. But then disappear into the hidden part of reality.

 

[arauca]

No, we aren't following some argument from authority because an argument from authority is "Person X knows about subject Y. X asserts Z to do with Y. Therefore Z is true". That's quite different from "Person X presents multiple, different but corroborating, pieces of evidence for Z and Persons A, B, C, ..... , D, who are also knowledgeable in Y, examine the evidence thoroughly and conclude it is a reasonable explanation for Z". There are multiple, different phenomena which point to dark matter. They have been presented to the community at large, many people have reviewed the data and the proposed models and continue to do so. And before you try it, no, that isn't the same as saying "This is unquestionably true!". Unlike Mazula and his claims about aliens, god and aether, physicists know that you cannot ever prove a model is absolutely true.

.

My point is the people that tell that they see their own body on the operating table . there are cases that the Dr. give up the patient for death an the monitoring equipment is shwing no brain activity and the lung-heart machine disconnected, yet the patient have wakened up and could tell them all what was taken place during the procedure and after the procedure when they have given up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Yxo3xUTEQ&feature=related

 

[Gravage]

Exactly- which is why your "dare" isn't much of a dare, is it?
Might as well dare me to prove that invisible elves don't exist. By the way, a decent person would apologize for accusing me of forbidding a mortally ill person hope. Since I demonstrated the glaring error in your accusation- perhaps you might like to try your hand at decency.

Ok then... Well, I think you're lying about your experiences.

So now what are we gonna do?

Again prove that afterlife does not exist, keep going for kids fantasy stories all over again, which is stupid from your side, these are not cartoons we're talking about, this is life, who says my or your energy does not keep existing in some other more fundamental form, energy never ceases to exist, it only transforms. What your are missing is that you can have other forms of energy that science simply cannot detect, measure or calculate-that's the point, not the goddamn imaginary unicorns.
I would not apologize for accusing you of forbidding a mortally ill person hope-because that crime is much greater, you cannot be such a person and say to mortally ill persons: you're delusional, God does not exist, afterlife does not exist-let people decide what they want to believe.

I'll tell you what I'm, I'm agnostic, I never was too much religious person even in my worst days, but I do understand people who are like. I'm only saying from my experience, I have never seen a person with NDEs/OBEs who did not become more spiritual or more religious. Some people in these circumstances believe in nature, not in God, but the point is hey always believe in something, and you suppose to not to believe in anything after multiple NDEs, sorry but I don't buy it, I met too many people with this phenomenon who became either more religious or more spiritual with having thse phenomenons.

 

[Gravage]

My point is the people that tell that they see their own body on the operating table . there are cases that the Dr. give up the patient for death an the monitoring equipment is shwing no brain activity and the lung-heart machine disconnected, yet the patient have wakened up and could tell them all what was taken place during the procedure and after the procedure when they have given up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Yxo3xUTEQ&feature=related

NDEs/OBEs can almost all be scientifically explained, all expect those cases where the person is entirely clinically dead. People who saw exactly what the doctor is doing or what doctor is doing in another room, or what was written on particular objects, while they were clinically dead.

 

[Neverfly]

Again prove that afterlife does not exist, keep going for kids fantasy stories all over again, which is stupid from your side, these are not cartoons we're talking about, this is life, who says my or your energy does not keep existing in some other more fundamental form, energy never ceases to exist, it only transforms.

It wouldn't be me once it transformed, now would it? Met many logs that were in a campfire? Nope. Transformation is just that- and another word that can work just as well is "destroyed."

What your are missing is that you can have other forms of energy that science simply cannot detect, measure or calculate-that's the point, not the goddamn imaginary unicorns.

What evidence do you have? Where's the math that shows this? ANYTHING?
No- you got nothing but speculation based on science you haven't got a clue about. If I burn books- transforming their "energy" (which is not some mysterious substance, by the way) - can I somehow read the book later in ghost print? No- that state of matter is gone. Same with your brain.
When you die, your energy will remain. Just as the dinosaurs energy has remained all this time until we started pumping it into our cars. It's transformed into inert energy- potential- it's not "within" the organized complex structure that it was and the state of matter was destroyed. If I destroy a pulley and rope system, the energy that was used remains in the objects moved with it. But the pulley and rope are gone and I cannot "Contact" the pulley and rope to lift something later with a seance.
"Energy" is just a description for Work Done- it is not some complex structure that carries information beyond the grave.
This is true for Mazulu's wave functions, as well.
This is the most BASIC physics, what one learns in Grade School. It's nothing at all complex. But you've listened to buffoons like Sylvia Brown and her ilk so long, you are clueless as to what the word "Energy" means.

I would not apologize for accusing you of forbidding a mortally ill person hope-because that crime is much greater, you cannot be such a person and say to mortally ill persons: you're delusional, God does not exist, afterlife does not exist-let people decide what they want to believe.

You keep telling me that I'm delusional but you cannot read even basic English sentences.

I'll tell you what I'm, I'm agnostic, I never was too much religious person even in my worst days, but I do understand people who are like. I'm only saying from my experience, I have never seen a person with NDEs/OBEs who did not become more spiritual or more religious. Some people in these circumstances believe in nature, not in God, but the point is hey always believe in something, and you suppose to not to believe in anything after multiple NDEs, sorry but I don't buy it, I met too many people with this phenomenon who became either more religious or more spiritual with having thse phenomenons.

You sure you're not in your worst days now?

 

[seagypsy]

NDEs/OBEs can almost all be scientifically explained, all expect those cases where the person is entirely clinically dead. People who saw exactly what the doctor is doing or what doctor is doing in another room, or what was written on particular objects, while they were clinically dead.

Have you ever heard of invented memories? Sometimes, you can inadvertently invent a memory. It happens in children quite easily. If you question a child aggressively about whether or not Uncle Bob molested them, and you are asking the same questions in a variety of different wordings, eventually the child will get so many images in their head of what you are suggesting to them that they think they remember actually being molested. Then their imagination goes into overdrive and next thing you know, they remember Aunt Sally smacked them on the face.

When people go into surgery, or they are in a terrible accident, it is no far stretch to assume they were afraid they would die before they lost consciousness. In the dream state before going actually dying they probably imagined what was going on, or could even hear a lot of what was happening and their mind created images to match what was heard, kind of like when you are dreaming and someone is trying to wake you but instead their voice goes into the dream and becomes part of it.

Well if you go into that situation afraid it is likely that is all you are thinking about in that dream state. And so you imagine seeing yourself dead on the table. But in reality it was your final dream before you died and when they resuscitated you, you weren't able to discern dream from actual reality.

I died while giving birth to my 4th child. I had a planned c section because I had a high risk pregnancy. They also determined about a week before the delivery that I had become very anemic. They had blood on standby but I remember as I was fading out (I was supposed to remain conscious during the entire procedure) I could hear them saying my vitals were dropping and that they were losing me. To get my husband out of the room. Get the baby to intensive care. At that point I started imagining my son being raced to the NICU. I imagined them putting IVs into him and tubes into his nose. All these things happened. I had a near death experience. But my amateur study of psychology took the mystery out of it. It wasn't because my spirit followed my son, it was because my imagination did. I was dreaming as I faded out. I was imagining seeing the one thing that mattered most to me, my new son. It wasn't an after life, it wasn't God showing me something. It was a dream. A vivid dream but still a dream. Nothing more.

I was not an atheist then. But I am now. The more I have learned about human psychology the more I have learned why we invent spirituality. Because we simply do not want to face death.