Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

[river]

The brains of all ten people would be making a "best guess" of what they are observing and it would be dependent on their POV.

Consider: a train track with a moving train at speed which is blowing it's whistle (wave frequencies). Behind the receding train stand 5 people and they all agree that the train whistle's frequency is the note of "c". At the other end of the track are 5 people listening to the train whistle as it approaches them and they all agree that the whistle's frequency is "d ".
Of these 10 observers, who is telling the truth and who is wrong?

They are all telling the truth and they are all wrong . The actual frequency of the train whistle is c# . The Doppler effect presents a "modified" frequency to all observers.

A photon does have a mathematical (quantum) value but this not a physical property. A photon is not "matter" it is a quanta of energetic value with a wavelength.
Abstract
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211379719330943#

Photons
Last updated May 18, 2020
As Described by Maxwell's Equations
Creation of Photons Blackbody Radiation
Spontaneous Emission
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshe...mental_Concepts_of_Quantum_Mechanics/Photons#

How does any this prove your threads point ?

 

[Write4U]

Of course .

But it's a misleading statement.
There is no atomic "core". There is an atomic nucleus, which consists of protons and neutrons and provide the mass of the nucleus. That is why an atom is the smallest dense mathematical pattern that qualifies as "matter".
All sub-atomic patterns are mathematical quantum values.

Atomic nucleus




A model of the atomic nucleus showing it as a compact bundle of the two types of nucleons: protons (red) and neutrons (blue). In this diagram, protons and neutrons look like little balls stuck together, but an actual nucleus (as understood by modern nuclear physics) cannot be explained like this, but only by using quantum mechanics. In a nucleus which occupies a certain energy level (for example, the ground state), each nucleon can be said to occupy a range of locations.

The atomic nucleus is the small, dense region consisting of protons and
neutrons at the center of an atom, discovered in 1911 by Ernest Rutherford based on the 1909 Geiger–Marsden gold foil experiment. After the discovery of the neutron in 1932, models for a nucleus composed of protons and neutrons were quickly developed by Dmitri Ivanenko[1] and Werner Heisenberg.[2][3][4][5][6]

An atom is composed of a positively-charged nucleus, with a cloud of negatively-charged electrons surrounding it, bound together by electrostatic force. Almost all of the mass of an atom is located in the nucleus, with a very small contribution from the electron cloud. Protons and neutrons are bound together to form a nucleus by the nuclear force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_nucleus

 

[river]

But it's a misleading statement.
There is no atomic "core". There is an atomic nucleus, which consists of protons and neutrons and provide the mass of the nucleus. That is why an atom is the smallest dense mathematical pattern that qualifies as "matter".
All sub-atomic patterns are mathematical quantum values.

Atomic nucleus




A model of the atomic nucleus showing it as a compact bundle of the two types of nucleons: protons (red) and neutrons (blue). In this diagram, protons and neutrons look like little balls stuck together, but an actual nucleus (as understood by modern nuclear physics) cannot be explained like this, but only by using quantum mechanics. In a nucleus which occupies a certain energy level (for example, the ground state), each nucleon can be said to occupy a range of locations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_nucleus

Physically exists . Whats your point Write4U .

 

[Write4U]

How does any this prove your threads point ?

Chaos Theory demonstrates that matter forms from "mathematical quantum values. It is the fundamental tenet of the Chaos Theory, that within disordered chaos specific recurring patterns emerge. Any recurring phenomenon is by definition a mathematical object.

Hence, if Chaos Theory is correct, it suggests a mathematical essence to the self-ordering and evolution of the fabric of the universe.
See previously posted link to CDT .

Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT) theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, and popularized by Fotini Markopoulou and Lee Smolin, is an approach to quantum gravity that like loop quantum gravity is background independent.

This
means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space), but rather attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

Ask, what was causal to the initial state of universal Chaos before "matter" dense patterns emerged?

 

[river]

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How does any this prove your threads point ?

Chaos Theory demonstrates that matter forms from "mathematical quantum values. It is the fundamental tenet of the Chaos Theory, that within disordered chaos specific recurring patterns emerge. Any recurring phenomenon is by definition a mathematical object.

No it doesn't .

 

[Write4U]

Physically exists . Whats your point Write4U .

An atomic nucleus is not a singular object.
An atomic nucleus is a compound pattern of sub-atomic mathematical quantum values. It does not exist independently as a complex pattern (object).

There is NO irreducible complexity.

 

[river]

[QUOTE="Write4U, post: 3645776, member: 261885" ]An atomic nucleus is not a singular object.
An atomic nucleus is a compound pattern of sub-atomic mathematical quantum values. It does not exist independently as a complex pattern (object).

There is NO irreducible complexity.[/QUOTE]

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Doesn't matter Write4U , what matters is the physical reality of the atom .

There is irreducible of physical things .

 

[Write4U]

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No it doesn't .

What then is it and where did it come from?
Mathematical object

A mathematical object is an abstract concept arising in mathematics. In usual language of mathematics, an object is anything that has been (or could be) formally defined, and with which one may do deductive reasoning and mathematical proofs.

Typically, a mathematical object can be the value of a variable, and therefore can be involved in formulas. Commonly encountered mathematical objects include: numbers, integers, integer partition, or expressions. Each branch of mathematics has its own objects.

Some examples are:

• Combinatorics
  • permutations, derangements, combinations

• Set theory
  • sets, set partitions
  • functions, and relations

• Geometry
  • points, lines, line segments,
  • polygons (triangles, squares, pentagons, hexagons, ...), circles, ellipses, parabolas, hyperbolas,
  • polyhedra (tetrahedrons, cubes, octahedrons, dodecahedrons, icosahedrons,
  • spheres, ellipsoids, paraboloids, hyperboloids, cylinders, cones.

• Graph theory
  • graphs, trees, nodes, edges

• Topology
  • topological spaces and manifolds.

• Linear algebra
  • scalars, vectors, matrices, tensors.

• Abstract algebra
  • groups,
  • rings, modules,
  • fields, vector spaces,
  • group-theoretic lattices, and order-theoretic lattices.

Categories are simultaneously homes to mathematical objects and mathematical objects in their own right. In proof theory, proofs and theorems are also mathematical objects.
The ontological status of mathematical objects has been the subject of much investigation and debate by philosophers of mathematics.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_object

 

[river]

What then is it and where did it come from?
Mathematical object Some examples are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_object

Yeah but so what Write4U ? Nothing that you have presented proves that mathematics , alone , manifests as something physical .

 

[Write4U]

Doesn't matter Write4U , what matters is the physical reality of the atom .

Where have I disputed that?
You keep refusing to acknowledge that the atom is not the smallest object in the universe. An atom is the smallest form of "matter"! The "Table of Elements" is the list of various forms of "matter".
Periodic table
This article is about the table used in chemistry and physics.

The periodic table, also known as the periodic table of elements, is a tabular display of the chemical elements, which are arranged by atomic number, electron configuration, and recurring chemical properties.

The structure of the table shows periodic trends. The seven rows of the table, called periods, generally have metals on the left and nonmetals on the right. The columns, called groups, contain elements with similar chemical behaviours. Six groups have accepted names as well as assigned numbers: for example, group 17 elements are the halogens; and group 18 are the noble gases. Also displayed are four simple rectangular areas or blocks associated with the filling of different atomic orbitals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table#

 

[Write4U]

Yeah but so what Write4U ? Nothing that you have presented proves that mathematics , alone , manifests as something physical .

I made no such claim.
My claim is that matter emerges from the mathematical self-ordering of "relational values via mathematical functions (mathematically defined processes) and that the Chaos Theory confirms that there exists a mathematical "ordering imperative" to Natural Laws (constants).

This does not materially affect any of the sciences in a non-trivial way. It explains the self-ordering processes of sub-atomic values into physical objects (matter). The Universal mathematical "guiding equations" of physical behaviors.

The benefits of a Mathematical Universe is explained in depth by several prominent scientists.

I believe this posit by Tegmark is profound; All scientists agree that the Universe has "some" mathematical properties. I propose that the Universe has "only" mathematical properties as a fundamental property of spacetime.

What's the Universe Made Of? Math, Says Scientist
By Tanya Lewis January 30, 2014

BROOKLYN, N.Y. — Scientists have long used mathematics to describe the physical properties of the universe. But what if the universe itself is math? That's what cosmologist Max Tegmark believes.

In Tegmark's view, everything in the universe — humans included — is part of a mathematical structure. All matter is made up of particles, which have properties such as charge and spin, but these properties are purely mathematical, he says. And space itself has properties such as dimensions, but is still ultimately a mathematical structure.

7 Surprising Things About the Universe

https://www.livescience.com/42839-the-universe-is-math.html#

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Yeah but so what Write4U ? Nothing that you have presented proves that mathematics , alone , manifests as something physical .

I made no such claim.
My claim is that matter emerges from the mathematical self-ordering of "relational values via mathematical functions (mathematically defined processes).

This does not materially affect any of the science. It explains the self-ordering processes of sub-atomic values into physical objects (matter). The Universal mathematical "guiding equations" of physical behaviors.

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Same difference .

You have not proved that mathematics , affects anything physical , in and of its its self .

What you have shown is that the physical forms the mathematics .

 

[Write4U]

You have not proved that mathematics , affects anything physical , in and of its its self .

You are still resisting. Mathematics affects everything because that's all there is. Physical patterns are mathematical constructs.

What you have shown is that the physical forms the mathematics

I have disproven that perspective with the link to the fact that certain purely theoretical mathematical equations, developed without thought to physics, proved to be perfectly suitable for explaining physical patterns and functions as well. Which again proves that spacetime is fundamentally a mathematical pattern, which emerged from the chaotic quantum "soup" (quantum foam) as physical densities, but can be analyzed with mathematics alone.

Don't forget that the word "physics" is just as much a human invention as the word "mathematics". Why do you lend more weight to physics than to mathematics?
You cling to the term "physics" from "convention". Conventional physics is not always correct, as has been mathematically proven a few times.......

You can prove or disprove physics with mathematics but you cannot prove or disprove mathematics with physics. Who are you going to call??

 

[Write4U]

You have not proved that mathematics , affects anything physical , in and of its its self .

Have you looked at a spiral galaxy lately? How did this object self-organized into becoming a spiral? How did the Fibonacci sequence become a fundamental property of so many disparate natural "patterns" and exponential functions? What is the physical law that expresses itself as an exponential function?

 

[river]

Have you looked at a spiral galaxy lately? How did this object self-organized into becoming a spiral? How did the Fibonacci sequence become a fundamental property of so many disparate natural "patterns" and exponential functions? What is the physical law that expresses itself as an exponential function?

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By the objects in that space , rotation , magnetic fields .

You keep ignoring the Truth of the Physical . Being the foundation of of all patterns and functions in mathematics .

 

[paddoboy]

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By the objects in that space , rotation , magnetic fields .

And the prime concern, with which without we wouldn't be here...Gravity!!!!
But perhaps you are floating in space river, unaffected by gravity...you certainly appear off the planet!

You keep ignoring the Truth of the Physical . Being the foundation of of all patterns and functions in mathematics .

No you ignore the truth and always have, particularly when it conflicts with your debunked electric universe nonsense.

You can prove or disprove physics with mathematics but you cannot prove or disprove mathematics with physics. Who are you going to call??

Bingo!!! Why do you ignore that fact river?
Because mathematics plays no part in the debunked schemozzle of an idea that is the electric universe?

 

[river]

Write4U said: ↑
You can prove or disprove physics with mathematics but you cannot prove or disprove mathematics with physics. Who are you going to call??

Its not about disproving mathematics and its role in understanding things .

Its about showing that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

 

[paddoboy]

Its not about disproving mathematics and its role in understanding things .

Maths is not disproved.

Its about showing that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

Philosophical ranting.
Matter/energy do not exist apart from the spacetime from which it arose.
GR tells us that that what we call space is simply the gravitational field of the universe, spacetime cannot exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field.

 

[river]

↑

Its about showing that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

Philosophical ranting.
Matter/energy do not exist apart from the spacetime from which it arose.
GR tells us that that what we call space is simply the gravitational field of the universe, spacetime cannot exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field.

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Not at all . Mathematics is the consequence of physical .

Mathematics in and of its self can not form a physical thing .

 

[Write4U]

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Doesn't matter Write4U , what matters is the physical reality of the atom .

No one is saying different.

There is irreducible of physical things .

No, that suggests Intelligent Design by an abstract mathematician and is incompatible with evolutionary processes and scientific rigor in general.

Its not about disproving mathematics and its role in understanding things .

You're trying very hard to disprove mathematics as the self-ordering patterns of matter from sub-atomic quantum values, fundamental to the evolutionary processes from the very subtle to gross expression in reality.

In a deterministic universe, Mathematics provide the the Implicate order and physics provide the Explicate order.

Its about showing that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

OK, show it.

I have proven that physics are dense patterns of self-ordered mathematical relational values.
Now you prove that mathematics are result of physical what, affinity? (your words).