Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon

The whole soul issue is a separate but related thing. I don't think there's a soul, I think the self is a product of the way the brain's connections function, and we see this in brain damage and various stimuli to the brain. We even have begun to map out common parts of the brain where their loss, inactivity, or overactivity does affect the person's self. If there was a separate soul, then this wouldn't make sense, unless the soul is itself divided, but being an obviously immaterial thing (which is yet another issue), it shouldn't be tied to the brain's functional losses.

Do you remember the movie IRONMAN? It's about this guy who builds a robotic armored body so that he can fly off and fight bad guys. Robotics technology is certainly at a point where it would be possible to interface with the robotic armor suit. The suit let's you see what's happening around you. Maybe there are sensors that detect the movement of the human inside so that the robotic armor suit can walk. Now what happens after a long day of fighting bad guys, the armor suit is significantly damaged and becomes inoperable. So what happens? The human inside has to exit the robotic armor.

So how is that analogy so different from a soul inhabiting a biological body?
 
Actually, whether or not a brain transplant is possible really depends upon the skill of the surgeon. As for the soul, I dunno. It would be a shame to go through all of the hassle of a brain transplant and then not get the body you wanted.

I can see it now....
USeitotLoseit.jpg
 
I tried to use the analogy to make a case, but that;s the problem with analogies, they're just for comparison, not a replacement for an argument.

If the soul is the self, and not the material brain, why is the brain's condition a factor for the self? Why is it sometimes the brain can substitute different areas and allow the individual to somewhat recover, but other times not? There should be some consistency there if the soul is a separate entity that just needs the body to connect to the world, but we find it's more of how the brain areas are doing that determines the self.
 
Do you remember the movie IRONMAN? It's about this guy who builds a robotic armored body so that he can fly off and fight bad guys. Robotics technology is certainly at a point where it would be possible to interface with the robotic armor suit. The suit let's you see what's happening around you. Maybe there are sensors that detect the movement of the human inside so that the robotic armor suit can walk. Now what happens after a long day of fighting bad guys, the armor suit is significantly damaged and becomes inoperable. So what happens? The human inside has to exit the robotic armor.

So how is that analogy so different from a soul inhabiting a biological body?

No difference at all. They are both imaginary situations. Neither are real.
 
No difference at all. They are both imaginary situations. Neither are real.
WRONG!!!! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong.
The military is working on it. They're called Exoskeletons. Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEOI7bYl3c

You really need to work on your imagination & conceptual understanding skills. Go watch a Disney movie.

Anyway, the idea is the same. The exoskeleton represents the biological body. When the exoskeleton is damaged, the user has to climb out of it. That's what your soul does when the body is injured. That's what the NDE experience is all about.
 
WRONG!!!! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong.
The military is working on it. They're called Exoskeletons. Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEOI7bYl3c

You really need to work on your imagination & conceptual understanding skills. Go watch a Disney movie.

Anyway, the idea is the same. The exoskeleton represents the biological body. When the exoskeleton is damaged, the user has to climb out of it. That's what your soul does when the body is injured. That's what the NDE experience is all about.

The exoskeleton is not alive. The human body is.

You know, sometimes I don't think you even believe what you say. Disney? really. Sure, that will teach me about reality.
 
The exoskeleton is not alive. The human body is.

You know, sometimes I don't think you even believe what you say. Disney? really. Sure, that will teach me about reality.
Not reality, IMAGINATION! And conceptual thinking.

The fact that the human body is made of cells, organic machines, is irrelevant to the point. Your body is a biological machine; those exoskeletions are metal & plastic, but they're machines also. When the body dies, the soul discards the biological machine like a useless dead thing.
 
Not reality, IMAGINATION! And conceptual thinking.

The fact that the human body is made of cells, organic machines, is irrelevant to the point. Your body is a biological machine; those exoskeletions are metal & plastic, but they're machines also. When the body dies, the soul discards the biological machine like a useless dead thing.

So you admit that this soul thing is all in your imagination. Good we are getting somewhere.
And here I thought you were trying to say it was real and all.

But in address to your analogy. The human soldier can get out of one exoskeleton and get into another one. He can then get out of that one and go back to the original. He can also take a few months off of never entering the exoskeleton. If he leaves the exoskeleton for a long while he can come back to it and the exoskeleton will still function. Leaving the exoskeleton does not cause it to immediately start breaking down into its base elements and be digested by microbes. The human soldier can be killed permanently destroyed.

but assuming this soul thing exists, it cannot, at will, get out of one body and get into another one. It cannot leave the body for a long period of time and then return to the same body and find that body in tact and fully functioning. If the soul thingy leaves the human body long enough that the body no longer functions, it cannot get back into that body ever. Your concept of the soul is that it lives on and never actually dies.

See the analogies don't hold.
 
See, now this is a good attitude to have.

Well I know that you won't believe me that is my opinion number one, always has been, always will be.
The problem is I got the feeling on this board that this is a solved problem, it is far from solved-that was my point, this is why I said we need a much more thorough scientific research on this subject.
And I am talking about those rare situations where the patient actually see some details, that he could not see during the operation while he/she was clinically dead and floating over the table.
 
Well I know that you won't believe me that is my opinion number one, always has been, always will be.
The problem is I got the feeling on this board that this is a solved problem, it is far from solved-that was my point, this is why I said we need a much more thorough scientific research on this subject.
And I am talking about those rare situations where the patient actually see some details, that he could not see during the operation while he/she was clinically dead and floating over the table.
Whether a believer or a non-believer, emotions and opinions can hold heavy- we're humans and trying to be a critical thinker or being a skeptic doesn't equate to perfect thinking.
 
Whether a believer or a non-believer, emotions and opinions can hold heavy- we're humans and trying to be a critical thinker or being a skeptic doesn't equate to perfect thinking.

Personally, I don't care if NDEs are all hallucinations or not they are not going to change my life better or worse (I'm talking about for myself, not for others).

However, I must note the following, brain is still extremely largely unexplained as well as its functions, I'll give you a tip from professor Altman who responded to IBM as they said they are going to simulate the cat's and human brains (this is why I keep repeating myself with the situation where the clinically dead patient sees some details that were not present/not happening while he/she was awaking or when he/she was fully awake):
I hope this text wouldn't be too big and too complex:

"Russ Altman began his lecture in the Unsolved Mysteries in Medical Research series with a tough question and a snappy answer. "Why can't computers simulate a living cell? That's easy -- because it's too hard. Thank you."

When the chuckles died down, Altman, MD, PhD, associate professor of medical informatics at Stanford, began the real work of explaining why computers can't yet replace living organisms in medical research.

During his April 17 lecture, Altman broke down the question into steps, each with its own problems and potential solutions. But first he issued a warning.

"Most of us are not trained to do this," Altman said of the challenge of reassembling millions of bits of experimental data into a cohesive model system that could, for instance, predict the effects of untested medication on humans. "We're taught to be reductionists, but usually the more simple a model is, the more likely it is to be wrong."

Altman said the first step in the process is identifying the individual components -- such as proteins and pools of molecules -- that affect cellular functions. Then the interactions between the components and pools must be identified and the results represented in a map format. Finally, it's necessary to translate the relationships represented by the map into equations, which can then be used to analyze input data -- such as the presence of a new drug -- and predict cellular responses.

The Human Genome Project, a national effort to identify and characterize all human genetic material, has helped to identify many of the players. But Altman emphasized that alternative splicing and multifunctional proteins could inflate the effective number of components beyond the 35,000 genes that have been identified. He also pointed out that differences in the three-dimensional distribution of molecules within a cell can affect their function.

Identifying interactions between the components is extremely complicated, Altman said. Current methods of calculating interactions between isolated components, such as the Michaelis-Menton equation used in enzyme kinetics, are not accurate when applied to living systems, he said. And it's difficult to precisely quantify interactions between feedback pathways.

"As soon as you draw both a plus and a minus on the same page of a model, you've bought yourself a quantitative problem," Altman said. These quantitative tussles can hamstring any effort to generate accurate equations.

Finally, it's not clear whether the computational power exists to crunch the numbers of the billions of interactions that occur in a cell, and whether enough experimental data exists to support this goal, Altman said.

"We may have to give up our desire to have a computer system that permits 'one-stop shopping' and -- at least for the short term -- scale back our expectations," Altman said.

When researchers associated with IBM announced that they had created a computer simulation that could be likened to a cat's brain, they hadn't talked beforehand to Ben Barres. They would have profited enormously from the conversation if they had.
In a widely covered announcement, IBM said that its researchers had simulated a brain with 1 billion neurons and 10 trillion synapses, which it noted was about the complexity of a cat's brain.
That led many writers to conclude that IBM computers could, as one put it, "simulate the thinking power" of a cat.
Getting a computer to work like any sort of brain, even little Fluffy's, would be an epic accomplishment. What IBM did, unfortunately, didn't even come close, as was pointed out a day later by other researchers, who published a letter scolding the company for what they described as a cynical PR stunt.

Any potential over-claiming aside, IBM's brain research follows the same pattern of similar explorations at many other centers. The logic of the approach goes something like this: We know the brain is composed of a network of cells called neurons, which pass messages to each other through connections known as synapses. If we build a model of those neurons and synapses in a computer, we will have a working double of a brain.

Which is where Ben Barres can shed some light. Barres is a neurobiologist and a specialist in something called glial cells. These are brain cells that are nearly as populous as neurons, but which are usually overlooked by researchers because they are presumed to be of little use; a kind of packing material that fills up space in between the neurons, where all the action is.
Barres, though, has made remarkable discoveries about glials. For example, if you take them away, neurons basically stop functioning properly. How? Why? We have no idea.

He does his research in the context of possible treatments for Alzheimer's, but the implications for modeling the brain are obvious, since you can't model something if you don't know how it works.

"We don't even begin to understand how neural circuits work. In fact, we don't even know what we don't know," he says. "The brain is very far from being modeled."

The computer can be a tempting metaphor for the brain, because of the superficial similarities. A computer has transistors and logic gates and networks of nodes; the various parts of the brain can be described in similar terms.

Barres says, though, that engineers seem to have a diminished ability to understand biology, in all its messy glory. Glial cells are one example, as they occupy much of the brain without our knowing barely the first thing about what they really do.

Another example, he says, involves the little matter of blood. Blood flow through the brain--its amplitudes and vagaries--has an enormous impact on the functioning of brain cells. But Barres said it's one that researchers have barely even begun to think about, much less model in a computer.

There are scores of neuro-scientists like Barres, with deep knowledge of their special parts of the brain. Most of them will tell you a similar story, about how amazing the brain really is and about the utterly shallow nature of our current understanding of it.

Remember them the next time you read a story claiming some brain-like accomplishment of a computer. The only really human thing these programs are doing is attracting attention to themselves."

That's how much we don't know about the human brain. I truly hope this text is not too big or too complex.
Cheers.
 
It's big. Man, you must type like 400 words per minute. How'd you do that? Seriously? I mean, you just replied all short n stuff, like you usually do and then- SLAM!
Yeah, I, Gravage don't really care but check THIS out:Whamwithadoozy.
It's gonna take me an hour just to read it and I have no idea how you typed it in less than 20 minutes.
 
I'm talking about cases when patients who are clinically dead see and describe exactly what was doctor doing, and you keep ignoring that, these are not hallucinations when the doctor confirms it. The explanations for everything else in NDE/OBE can be explained.

The facts you are alleging do not lead to the conclusion you've drawn.

In order to be valid, you're barred from requiring the laws of nature to be suspended. For most folks that takes no more than common sense. If you've lost your bearings, then you can pretty easily check yourself by simply applying the slightest amount of science to the issue. I think I've given you enough to work with either way.

Your claim or belief that doctors have validated the impossible exploits the fallacy of an appeal to authority. You've apparently exploited this to convince yourself of the impossible, no doubt motivated by your wish that the impossible would be true.

Nature isn't going to give you that one no matter how hard you wish for it. That's why it's always the safest bet to go with best evidence and to try to develop your science chops.

Given the choice that the putative witnesses are mistaken, mislead or lying, vs the choice that magic replaces natural laws, it ought to be obvious to you that you've simply chosen the wrong conclusion. Unless you're extremely naive, which I'm skeptical of, I doubt you think randomly discovered "witnesses" are infallible. And while you may want to dispute the science that ascribes consciousness to the living brain, it's hugely more reliable than some crackpots who are either masquerading as doctors, or even truly are doctors.
 
So you admit that this soul thing is all in your imagination. Good we are getting somewhere.
And here I thought you were trying to say it was real and all.
Well it's not made of particles from the standard model. The border where established physical reality (physics) meets the non-material occult universe is the wave-function. The wave-function is the boundary.
But in address to your analogy. The human soldier can get out of one exoskeleton and get into another one. He can then get out of that one and go back to the original. He can also take a few months off of never entering the exoskeleton. If he leaves the exoskeleton for a long while he can come back to it and the exoskeleton will still function. Leaving the exoskeleton does not cause it to immediately start breaking down into its base elements and be digested by microbes. The human soldier can be killed permanently destroyed.
It's not a perfect analogy. The soul is less dense than the particles of the standard model. So the heaviness of the exoskeleton is a good analogy by virtue of its mass and density.
but assuming this soul thing exists, it cannot, at will, get out of one body and get into another one. It cannot leave the body for a long period of time and then return to the same body and find that body in tact and fully functioning. If the soul thingy leaves the human body long enough that the body no longer functions, it cannot get back into that body ever. Your concept of the soul is that it lives on and never actually dies. See the analogies don't hold.
OK, so it's not a perfect analogy. Maybe Christianity or one of the major religions has a better definition/analogy of a soul.:shrug:
 
It's big. Man, you must type like 400 words per minute. How'd you do that? Seriously? I mean, you just replied all short n stuff, like you usually do and then- SLAM!
Yeah, I, Gravage don't really care but check THIS out:Whamwithadoozy.
It's gonna take me an hour just to read it and I have no idea how you typed it in less than 20 minutes.

Hey there, Neverfly. It was cut and paste. Here's the link. It's dated 2001, kind of an odd choice of timeframe for referencing the genome project:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2001/may2/living_cell.html
 
Well it's not made of particles from the standard model. The border where established physical reality (physics) meets the non-material occult universe is the wave-function. The wave-function is the boundary.

It's not a perfect analogy. The soul is less dense than the particles of the standard model. So the heaviness of the exoskeleton is a good analogy by virtue of its mass and density.

OK, so it's not a perfect analogy. Maybe Christianity or one of the major religions has a better definition/analogy of a soul.:shrug:


oooooorrrr? There is no soul.
 
The facts you are alleging do not lead to the conclusion you've drawn.

In order to be valid, you're barred from requiring the laws of nature to be suspended. For most folks that takes no more than common sense. If you've lost your bearings, then you can pretty easily check yourself by simply applying the slightest amount of science to the issue. I think I've given you enough to work with either way.

Your claim or belief that doctors have validated the impossible exploits the fallacy of an appeal to authority. You've apparently exploited this to convince yourself of the impossible, no doubt motivated by your wish that the impossible would be true.

Nature isn't going to give you that one no matter how hard you wish for it. That's why it's always the safest bet to go with best evidence and to try to develop your science chops.

Given the choice that the putative witnesses are mistaken, mislead or lying, vs the choice that magic replaces natural laws, it ought to be obvious to you that you've simply chosen the wrong conclusion. Unless you're extremely naive, which I'm skeptical of, I doubt you think randomly discovered "witnesses" are infallible. And while you may want to dispute the science that ascribes consciousness to the living brain, it's hugely more reliable than some crackpots who are either masquerading as doctors, or even truly are doctors.

I don't think it's good to speculate, unless you know everything about the brain how it works, its every single detail (but even that won't exclude the existence of afterlife or God). I didn't choose the wrong conclusion, my point in behind all of my posts was, we don't know enough to exclude the existence afterlife and God for example. Just because something cannot be experimentally scientifically proven/disproven, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it's not there somewhere.
Cheers.
 
It's big. Man, you must type like 400 words per minute. How'd you do that? Seriously? I mean, you just replied all short n stuff, like you usually do and then- SLAM!
Yeah, I, Gravage don't really care but check THIS out:Whamwithadoozy.
It's gonna take me an hour just to read it and I have no idea how you typed it in less than 20 minutes.

No, I'm not a robot, I merely copied my own post from the link on Intelligence and Machines sub-forum.
 
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