Great victory over political correctness and leftist propaganda

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ultron, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Riiiight, it's racism. Or, perhaps, it's simply pointing out a blatant fact - I, as a white, protestant, male (ironically enough, of English descent on my fathers side) am largely "safe" from the vitriol and hateful rhetoric, not because of anything I've done, but because I won the "lottery of luck" and happen to fall within that blessedly safe category. It is not by my own hand or making. How is it racist to acknowledge that?

    I certainly haven't seen anyone suggesting rounding up and deporting millions of white christian males, after all...

    Aye, I am... which is part of why I am able to make this statement - I make it as a member of that "safe" group.

    If I am offending people (such as yourself) by stating the obvious (that they are largely safe from the persecution that our current election cycle has given rise to and, in many ways, has empowered) then honestly, that isn't a problem with what I'm saying - it's further proof that its true. The fact that the best counterargument you can make to it is "oh it's offensive" kind of says it all.

    Right... I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but if I simply banned whomever I felt like based on them irritating me, well, for one, I wouldn't still be a moderator...

    Which, ironically enough, is the exact point I was making... and apparently flew over your head (or did you ignore it in order to facilitate this righteous indignation of yours?) My entire POINT is that, in general, the ones telling people to "calm down and stop worrying" are the ones that, by virtue of who they are, have virtually nothing to worry about. You don't see a bunch of white folk being added to a University of Pennsylvania "Lynch Group" by some supremacist whackjob.

    This paragraph confounds me... in one breath you are both opposing my entire point, and supporting it... are you perhaps confused about what I was saying?

    The same struggles that every other racial group has been dealing with as well - the difference being that the non-white ethnicity folk have the added concerns of being attacked by any number of hate groups that we have allowed to not only roam freely, but damn well PROSPER, in some perverted expression of "free speech"... it would seem that folks forget; a persons freedoms end when they infringe upon the freedoms of another. ie, one cannot simply round up a bunch of their redneck buddies and have themselves an "old fashioned fag drag" just because they can't stand the idea that their two male neighbors are in a committed relationship; one cannot simply demand a woman to "get on her knees and service him" simply because he is man and she is woman; one cannot simply call for the absolute destruction of a group of people simply because they have a different religious view or skin tone...

    In this country, folks have the RIGHT to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    This is a founding, fundamental, and basic premise upon which this country was founded... there is no "as long as they worship the same God as us" or "as long as they are the same skin colour as us" appended onto that.

    Much the same, in Christianity:

    There are no "criteria" on these; it doesn't say to "love thy neighbor unless he worships a different god" or "love thy neighbor unless he loves another man"... no, love thy neighbor, full stop.

    The simple fact is, a particular group of people has taken to dismissing the concerns of a LARGE part of our population, claiming them to be irrational or unfounded or otherwise foolish; this is wrong. We are SEEING those fears come true every day, as people are attacked, assaulted, and even killed on the streets, guilty of no crime other than "being different" than their attacker. If that point is somehow lost on you, Yazata, then you are part of the problem. Full stop, no negotiation.

    EDIT - and yes, I am irate over this... extremely so. I have watched people I, at one time, thought were reasonable enough turn around and tell close friends of mine that they are stupid for being afraid, that they have "bought into the liberal propaganda", and at times, even tell them that "well, you are gay so you deserve this; you brought it on yourself!"

    You are DAMN RIGHT I'm angry. That kind of self entitled horseshit is way out of line, and it is not acceptable.
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    So if there is excuse, the society is -to that extent at least - not civilized.

    You do realize that you are equating:
    1) being offended occasionally, by a description you find disparaging and rude no matter how accurate;
    2) Suffering generations of significant and continuing and cumulative injury at the whims and hands of bigots acting with impunity.

    Right? You intended that ludicrous equivalence?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
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  5. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Sorry, so late:
    Yes, I do get that. So, you're saying that any individual gets to decide what someone else's statement means, regardless of what the person saying it intended. I'm simply following that logic. Moreover, I'm sure everyone has actually seen BLM protestors holding signs that actually say white lives don't matter or committing acts of violence against them (paraphrase - most of the violence is directed at cops though), so it isn't even like I'm pulling this out of the air.
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    No. The assertion is that people reasoning well from good evidence honestly observed get to say that the self-assessments of the self-excusing who deny such evidence and reasoning,

    especially in the process of evading responsibility for the consequences of their own actions,

    are wrong.
    I haven't, actually. Got a link?
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    In general, no. In this case, yes. Because it comes as a response to black anguish, it didn't arise in a vacuum. I don't believe anyone who says white lives matter isn't aware of the context. When they assert an academic, disconnected analysis of the statement, it's passive aggressive, and those people deserve the same contempt we show to racist sentiment, because that's essentially what it is. It's a way that people can assert racist ideas like we should ignore police violence against blacks, while maintaining the pretense of being fair and neutral.

    Colorblind Ideology Is a Form of Racism
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  9. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

    Well if you say so it must be true, right? I'd ask to bring some factual data to back up these statements, but I am guessing that would be from Breitbart or some other "independent" new source, that isn't "rigged", right? This is the way things work in post-truth America. I thought the standards might be higher here on "sci"forums.

    Here's one resource on statistics of terrorism in the USA. "Domestic" terrorism" events exceed "Jihadist" terrorism since 9/11 - with the exception of the event in Orlando this year.

    Plus, it turns out that the great majority of terrorists are NOT coming from overseas, they are already US citizens.

    Citizens and Permanent Residents - 81%
    Non-residents and Unknown - 19%
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  10. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

    I find the whole "politically correct" nonsense by the Radical Right to be pretty humorous. The biggest eveidence I saw of political correctness was the media refusing to use the "f" word; when most of us knew that Trump was a fascist. But the media tip-toed around that word in their effort to coddle him; either that or they were afraid of him..
  11. Watcher Just another old creaker Registered Senior Member

  12. Bells Staff Member

    How is he being racist against Caucasians by acknowledging that as a white Christian male, he enjoys privileges in society as a matter of course, as opposed to Muslims, African Americans, Jews, Native Americans, Hispanics and Asians?

    How, exactly, is he being racist against "whites" by acknowledging this?

    Where did he say that?

    Let me put it to you this way.. What are the chances that Kitta is going to have a bunch of bigots abusing him and telling him to 'go back to your country' or telling him that he has to leave now because Trump is President (which is what minorities have been putting up with on a much bigger scale since Trump won the election)? The chances of that happening to a white Christian straight male in America in the current climate is pretty much zero.

    Wait wait wait.. What does his being a moderator have to do with this discussion?

    And secondly, acknowledging that a racial divide exists in America does not make him a racist. Unless you have been living in a cave with no contact with the outside world for the last, oooohhh, 200+ years in America, one could not deny that a racial divide continues to exist in the United States.

    As a white male, he does enjoy privileges that minorities in the US do not enjoy. This is a fact of life and reality. For example, when your new President preached about stop and frisk laws that he wished to propose during his campaign for President, it wasn't aimed at white people, but directly at minorities. In particular, it was aimed at black males. As a white male, Kitta's chances of being racially profiled by the police is virtually nil. The same cannot be said for minorities. Kitta, being a white Christian male, was not the target of Trump and the alt-right's angst at minorities. Trump and his alt-right supporters do not view Kitta as being an enemy because he is a white.

    You are basically pushing a narrative that states that as a white person, he should not somehow turn on his kind, when he has done no such thing by acknowledging that white privilege exists. You are saying that he has somehow turned on his 'own kind', his own "race" by acknowledging the giant bloody elephant in the room. The only way one could make the argument that you are trying to make in this thread is if you ascribe to the teachings of Richard Spencer..

    This doesn't even make any sense.

    As Kitta explained, you are making his point for him. The people trying to silence the protests, the people demanding that Trump being elected is a good thing for minorities while ignoring the policies put forward by Trump which demonised minorities, turned Latinos into being rapists and murderers, blacks as being lazy and criminal, Muslims as terrorists, not to mention those very people who demonised the LGBTQ community as being child predators, while dismissing the up-tick in racist attacks, are all predominantly white, heterosexual and Christian. In other words, they are approaching this from a standpoint of protection and surety that whatever Trump does negatively, whatever he had said about minorities, did not affect them because it couldn't affect them.

    Ie, they are approaching it from a position of privilege. You understand that, yes?

    This also makes little sense.

    Kitta acknowledging that white privilege exists is not political correctness. Kitta pointed out a reality. Which in recent days, was made abundantly clear by the GOP political establishment.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Do you need an explanation of what is wrong with this picture?

    There is one minority in that photo. Can you spot him?

    That photo represents all of the GOP in the House. One minority. What does that tell you about white privilege? What does that image represent about the status of white male privilege when there are only a small handful of women in that image? What does that image tell you when there is only one minority in that whole room?

    White privilege and white male privilege is instutionalised, particularly within the structure of the GOP itself. It isn't political correctness to point this out. Especially when blatant examples of this are put out by the right in US politics on a daily basis. Accusing Kitta of being racist for point out that white male privilege exists and that as a white Christian heterosexual male, he is privy to said privilege is ludicrous. Accusing him of buying into political correctness for pointing out the bleeding obvious is downright obscene.

    You mean the jobs that Trump kept touting had gone to China and Mexico and other 'non-white' countries while driving the false narrative about the criminality of minorities?

    All while ignoring the real culprit which played a bigger role in loss of manufacturing jobs is actually technology...

    But hey, continue to scoff and whine about political correctness, while ignoring teachers calling students niggers and minorities being abused, harassed and threatened in the streets, schools and workplaces. Let me guess, you think they are genuinely and rightfully afraid because of political correctness and leftist propaganda? Or have you just decided to ignore the actual threats and harassment and physical assaults that minorities have endured? You have decided to ignore the abuse and bigotry that has persisted for generations? You could only make your argument if you had been living in a cave for with no contact with the outside world.

    Frankly, your whine about political correctness reeks of actual white privilege. Your accusing Kitta of racism for pointing out the reality of white privilege reeks of white privilege.
    Watcher and Kittamaru like this.
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    You forgot he was born rich, like Jadan Smith or Paris Hilton. Until you and your ilk accept that classicism literally TRUMPS all, we will lose again. Trump did not simply win the white vote, he made gains in almost all other demographics, even Hispanics which was personally an unbelievable truth I had to accept. Dozens of millions of Americans of all races and genders are so desperate for economic improvement to their stagnant labor class existence that they will vote for a blatant charlatan that tells them "Your suffering is due to political corruption, outsourcing, illegal immigrants and I will make it all great again!"
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    I would say that has more to do with who the Dem candidate was (Hillary "Hello - I am the bourgeoisie" Rodham "What, wiped? You mean like with a cloth? Teehee" Clinton) than anything else. At this juncture, though, that is entirely irrelevant to the point that Trump, and his "hate is okay" rhetoric has empowered white supremacists across the nation.
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Which is irrelevant to the fact he got elected primarily because millions of voters did not see any hope with Hillary for their economic duldrums and millions did see it with Trump, or at least a "burn it all down" mentality they saw with trump.

    Yes primarily we lost because we push an unelectable candidate with decades of scandal-baggage and being the most establishment political insider candidate yet to run in a time when people would rather see the nation burn just so long as the establishment suffer too.

    But we also lost because we pushed the wrong policies and used tactics which the majority gave no fucks about. Racial and gender issues simply do not compare to the appeal of economic issues of the labor class, enough voters simply do not give a fuck about Trumps hateful rhetoric so long as he pulls through promises of improving their economic situation and punishing all those they feel causes their economic purgatory. Calling them out as racist, sexist, misogynists, etc, only galvanized them and even caused us to lose votes from moderates and independents who saw us as moral bullies of a richer class incapable of understand the desperation of the lower class.

  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    So you feel that, because people felt that Hillary would have been "more of the same" (which I am NOT arguing against, mind you), that it is perfectly OK that Trump's campaign rhetoric is now causing millions to live in fear for their very lives, fear that they may be rounded up into goddamn INTERNMENT CAMPS, fear that they may be assaulted, beaten, and even murdered in cold blood just for "not being white" or "not being straight"?

    Because that is, quite simply, the statement you seem to be making - that the ends justify the means, and right now, the "means" includes allowing millions to be vulnerable to assault, battery, and murder...

    For the record - for a while, i was considering voting Trump for president, then blue-ticket for the rest,purely because I found Hillary so distasteful... however, his violent rhetoric pushed me to vote straight blue. I had been looking at Third Party options, but none of them really left me feeling any less 'dirty' then a blue-ticket vote.
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Yeah I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is had we not gone with Hillary and had we gone with a political strategy of improving the economy for the labor class in new, radical, so called "anti-establishment" ways, we would not have President Trump and the nightmare of entitled migrant scapegoating he has brought with him. Instead we went with Hillary and a strategy of demonizing Trump and his supports while pushing no political policies meaningful to the labor class. If the ends was Not President Trump than the means would be justify had they worked, since the means did not work and failed miserable against what was the most unelectable candidate second only to Hillary Clinton, we must re-evauluate the means less you want 8 years of Trump and his immigrate round up squads, internment camps, and muslim deathcamps, or what ever else you fear. Do you want that? No? Then shape up, throw out the strategies that failed us, get politically active and work harder so that we can defeat republicans in congress in 2018 and get Bernie or Warren or another electable, inspiring candidate that priorities economic and political reform, the issues most voters put as their top priorities.

    Unfortunately people like you and I were not enough, there were not enough of us willing to hold our noses and vote Clinton, not compared to those that wanted "Change" "Make America Great Again" or simply to burn the establishment, burn it all down. In short Trump was not bad enough verse Clinton for us to win on that.
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    So, then, we can agree that Clinton was a shit candidate and Trump was "different enough" to grab the votes... can we also agree his campaign rhetoric was reprehensible, the people he is putting in high positions are terrifying in their "old white christian guy" missives, and that in general shit like hate crimes have gotten worse as a result of his essentially saying "Yeah, go ahead and be bigots, it's A-OK" by being elected?
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Yeah sure, we agree on all that. Only thing is I don't see how that changes the fact that had we conducted ourselves differently, had we attacked trump and his supporters on trump's moronic economic polices or blatant lack there of in the most obvious snake oil sale ever instead of calling them all racist, had we not been screaming about his boorish sexism instead of pointing out his lack of principles or anything close to sanity, maybe would not have president trump now.

    To the threads point: the election of trump is proof that calling out racist, sexist, misogynist, etc, is utterly useless now, so over used it has no meaning or effect, especially with a man that made DAILY gaffes that normally would have sunk any politician, to the point that his statement of "grab 'em by the pussy" was yawned at. It was Cthulhulian genius on his part that his boorish buffoonery was so powerful as to overloaded the media and become disregardable.

    Now if Trump does start making death camps and rounding up the untermensch, we need to show the world in detail the suffering he is imposing, not scream "racist, fascist, Nazi" over and over again, we must learn from this disaster of an election if we want to end this nightmare in 2020!
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Truth be told, if he starts doing that... well, the Declaration of Independence takes care of that:
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Who's "we"?

    I don't recall any shortage of people in my crowd pointing out Trump's lack of principles, the incoherent and damaging nature of his economic policies, his sanity issues, etc. That dominated the discussion, in my crowd. Unfortunately, none of that ever registered with Trump voters - it was all elitist noise from liberals, if they heard it at all.

    What it proves to those of us watching the campaign coverage mollycoddle the creeps, even stepping hard on honest and solid journalism when it conflicted with the narrative of "both sides are good people who sometimes make equivalent mistakes each" (remember when Brian Williams dressed down Matt Taibbi for daring to suggest that T Party rally crowds in fact had no legitimate and coherent political views, but were in fact wrong, misled, clueless, manipulated by propagandists, and full of shit? ),

    is that tiptoeing around and refusing to simply name what is front and center, bending over backwards and going way out the way to "respect both sides" and "listen to what people have to say", refusing to call out racism and sexism and blatant misogyny when it's slapped in your face, refusing to even say the name of fascism when it is running for high office,

    in order to avoid offending the ignorant bigots at the voting core of the Republican Party

    as I saw every single major news outlet and public pundit crew do, for the entire year and half of Donald's rise,

    doesn't work. The Trump voter will simply invent the screaming, imagine the disrespect and calling out, get all mad about being picked on in their minds, and justify their horrible behavior and fuckwitted debacles and the harm they do their families, neighbors, communities, and country, by claiming that elitists despise regular people so it serves them right to get kicked in the teeth.
  22. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    There just wasn't enough truthiness there...
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The standard analysis of the Hispanic vote gain is that Trump picked up some anti-abortion and misogyny share - nothing at all to do with economic issues.

    The statistical analysis is that Trump made no gains in absolute vote in those (or any) groups, but gained some percentage share because Clinton lost some absolute turnout.

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